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#26 2003-02-10 4:20 pm

DavidMichael
Member
From: The Web
Registered: 2002-03-24
Posts: 1152

Re: Are you for the war or against it?

OK so I gotta answer.
YES, I am all for the War.
And as I am too old for to go there ( and having done my bit twice over so as to allow all you lily-livered sobs to live in order to shout about doing  the damned war), I suggest the foll:

All you guys who are so gung-ho about this mad-ass thing get first in line for the draft. Go out there and kick ass and be proud of it.

Just don't sit back here and make stupid rat-assed comments about why others should go do your dirty work for you. Grab your balls and run you sobs.

And before you do it, read Shakespeare, Henry V before Agincourt:
" ... and Gentlemen in England now abed
Will hold their manhoods cheap whist any speaks
Who fought with us upon St Crispin's Day ..."

The problem with the great majority of the Yanks is that whilst they have always loved the idea of a fight, when the glove was thrown down, they have always been found wanting.
Wonder why that is?

Have any of you wondered how much good might have been done in Vietnam if all of the money spent on all of the bombs and other munitions dropped on that poor benighted country had been spent instead, on making it a fit and free country? (Instead of supporting a corrupt and venal regime which was doomed to failure from the start?)

Myopia. Total myopia. And the truly sad thing is that The American Government - and by extension, the American people, for it is they who put the Government there - NEVER learns.


HILLARY FOR PREZ!!!

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#27 2003-02-10 5:16 pm

Farmerkev
Official Dementor
Moderator
Registered: 2003-01-03
Posts: 18626

Re: Are you for the war or against it?

The problem with the great majority of the Yanks is that whilst they have always loved the idea of a fight, when the glove was thrown down, they have always been found wanting.
Wonder why that is?

We have?

Have any of you wondered how much good might have been done in Vietnam if all of the money spent on all of the bombs and other munitions dropped on that poor benighted country had been spent instead, on making it a fit and free country? (Instead of supporting a corrupt and venal regime which was doomed to failure from the start?)

About as much good as it has all the other places we've sent untold millions. Zip.


Do your part to combat global warming.
Eat a cow.

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#28 2003-02-10 10:14 pm

gnomonous
Member
From: East of the plains... and the
Registered: 2001-07-18
Posts: 1244
Website

Re: Are you for the war or against it?

OK so I gotta answer.
YES, I am all for the War.
And as I am too old for to go there ( and having done my bit twice over so as to allow all you lily-livered sobs to live in order to shout about doing  the damned war), I suggest the foll:

All you guys who are so gung-ho about this mad-ass thing get first in line for the draft. Go out there and kick ass and be proud of it.

Just don't sit back here and make stupid rat-assed comments about why others should go do your dirty work for you. Grab your balls and run you sobs.

And before you do it, read Shakespeare, Henry V before Agincourt:
" ... and Gentlemen in England now abed
Will hold their manhoods cheap whist any speaks
Who fought with us upon St Crispin's Day ..."

The problem with the great majority of the Yanks is that whilst they have always loved the idea of a fight, when the glove was thrown down, they have always been found wanting.
Wonder why that is?

Have any of you wondered how much good might have been done in Vietnam if all of the money spent on all of the bombs and other munitions dropped on that poor benighted country had been spent instead, on making it a fit and free country? (Instead of supporting a corrupt and venal regime which was doomed to failure from the start?)

Myopia. Total myopia. And the truly sad thing is that The American Government - and by extension, the American people, for it is they who put the Government there - NEVER learns.

First and foremost, I repect the fact that you served our country and appreciate it.  That being said, why do you support this war if you are aware of this country's severe myopic condition?


If the words "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" don't include the right to experiment with your own consciousness, then the Declaration of Independence isn't worth the hemp it was written on.
-- Terence McKenna

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#29 2003-02-10 10:32 pm

Gr@sshopper
Redtailed mountain goat
From: Claremont CA
Registered: 2001-05-01
Posts: 1584

Re: Are you for the war or against it?

Umm, farmer, the US hasn't really spent untold millions in a non military fashion anywhere.

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#30 2003-02-10 10:58 pm

gnomonous
Member
From: East of the plains... and the
Registered: 2001-07-18
Posts: 1244
Website

Re: Are you for the war or against it?

I agree that none of these issues are cut and dry, but the line of thinking in your last paragraph leads to the assertion that we citizens are incapable of making any judgement about government actions at all.  That means the end of democracy.  I don't think we should get to comfortable with that idea.  Instead we should demand the truth about these issues, which, you're right, will not arrive via the News.

See that is where it gets really tricky.  Should the people of the United states know everything.  My initial reply is to scream out YES!.  Nowever think about it. 
How long would this nation last if the goverment told us everything. 

"US Special forces team to make secret raid on North Korean Nuclear plant tomorrow at 1:00AM.  Pictures at 11" 

Is that what we want? 
People are not incapable of making choices, however the whole reason that we are a republic and not a Democracy is that your average person CAN"T make many of those choices.  Take the situation in Iraq.  Most people hear a bit of the story and then jump to a conclusion one way or the other.  That is not what we want when the nation is on the line. 

Where do we draw the line?  I have no idea.  But I do know that there will always be secrets kept from the public.  Not because the goverment wants to keep us in the dark, but because for our own safety we must be kept in the dark about some things.

Good questions.  I don't know either.  But as far as something like war goes we simply have to be informed.  No, the govt shouldn't have to disclose every covert secret or strategic plan, but it has got to have enough of its activities on the table, in plain view, if it wants an informed public to back it.  I don't think there's any way around that.  And I don't think this administration agrees with me.  We've been told over and over again that everything is "being taken care of" and that we should just continue shopping and going about our lives.  But we know that's not how this political system is supposed to work.  Why is this administration (and the past few) been selling us something other than democracy, or a democratic republic?  "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do fro your country," has morphed into, "Just go about your lives and let us do our jobs."  Frankly, I am struggling to understand why more Americans don't see how significant the difference is.  The Executive Branch, specifically, is getting out of our control.

For that reason I think that any Presidential initiative should be placed under a magnifying glass regardless of claims of sensitivity.  That branch has gotten out of control.


If the words "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" don't include the right to experiment with your own consciousness, then the Declaration of Independence isn't worth the hemp it was written on.
-- Terence McKenna

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#31 2003-02-11 6:14 am

DavidMichael
Member
From: The Web
Registered: 2002-03-24
Posts: 1152

Re: Are you for the war or against it?

First and foremost, I repect the fact that you served our country and appreciate it.  That being said, why do you support this war if you are aware of this country's severe myopic condition?

Well, I spport the War because I will not stand idly by ahilst our oldest and best ally is deserted by those who have been helped most by it.
As disgusted as I am by the thought of War in Iraq, I am even more disgusted that France and Germany should veto the placement of NATO anti-missile missiles in Turkey. The Patriot is NOT an offensive weapon.
I cannot describe to you how sick that makes me feel.
It has turned a vocal anti-War guy into a "Stuff you France and Germany". Next time they come crying for outside support let's see what they think of Vetoes then!
France has forgotten too soon the 157,000 Americans who died whilst clearing their country of Nazis.
France should be deeply ashamed.


HILLARY FOR PREZ!!!

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#32 2003-02-11 6:35 am

Farmerkev
Official Dementor
Moderator
Registered: 2003-01-03
Posts: 18626

Re: Are you for the war or against it?

BUZZZZZ:wrong
Food aid
disaster relief
the list goes on and on, country after country.


Do your part to combat global warming.
Eat a cow.

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#33 2003-02-11 7:06 am

isaly
Member
From: well. . . I was there, now I'm
Registered: 2001-09-15
Posts: 5612
Website

Re: Are you for the war or against it?

DavidMichael wrote:

France has forgotten too soon the 157,000 Americans who died whilst clearing their country of Nazis.
France should be deeply ashamed.

France lost 250,000 military and 360,000 civilians. Stop being so bloody self righteous.


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#34 2003-02-11 7:11 am

DavidMichael
Member
From: The Web
Registered: 2002-03-24
Posts: 1152

Re: Are you for the war or against it?

DavidMichael wrote:

France has forgotten too soon the 157,000 Americans who died whilst clearing their country of Nazis.
France should be deeply ashamed.

France lost 250,000 military and 360,000 civilians. Stop being so bloody self righteous.

I will if you stop being so bloody stupid.

America did not NEED to go liberate the French.
Seeing as the useless twats couldnt do it themselves - and in the majority actively assisted the Nazis as collaborators, somebody had to do the dirty work.
Grow up, rectum.


HILLARY FOR PREZ!!!

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#35 2003-02-11 7:12 am

isaly
Member
From: well. . . I was there, now I'm
Registered: 2001-09-15
Posts: 5612
Website

Re: Are you for the war or against it?

. . . also, for those of you who juat foam jingoistic self righteous blindness. . . the Soviet Union incurred 13,600,000 military and 7,700,000 civilian casualties to the US 260,000 military and negligable civilian casualties.

who the fukk are you to say. . .

Of course, I know that some people are going to twist this into my being a 'Stalin lover'. . .


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#36 2003-02-11 7:14 am

isaly
Member
From: well. . . I was there, now I'm
Registered: 2001-09-15
Posts: 5612
Website

Re: Are you for the war or against it?

hahahahahaha. . . you are really quite silly. . . rectum indeed. . . look in the mirror, self-righteous dungheap.


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================= (_)/ (_)

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#37 2003-02-11 8:46 am

gnomonous
Member
From: East of the plains... and the
Registered: 2001-07-18
Posts: 1244
Website

Re: Are you for the war or against it?

. . . also, for those of you who juat foam jingoistic self righteous blindness. . . the Soviet Union incurred 13,600,000 military and 7,700,000 civilian casualties to the US 260,000 military and negligable civilian casualties.

who the fukk are you to say. . .

Of course, I know that some people are going to twist this into my being a 'Stalin lover'. . .

Stalin lover  wink


If the words "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" don't include the right to experiment with your own consciousness, then the Declaration of Independence isn't worth the hemp it was written on.
-- Terence McKenna

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#38 2003-02-11 9:18 am

gnomonous
Member
From: East of the plains... and the
Registered: 2001-07-18
Posts: 1244
Website

Re: Are you for the war or against it?

First and foremost, I repect the fact that you served our country and appreciate it.  That being said, why do you support this war if you are aware of this country's severe myopic condition?

Well, I spport the War because I will not stand idly by ahilst our oldest and best ally is deserted by those who have been helped most by it.
As disgusted as I am by the thought of War in Iraq, I am even more disgusted that France and Germany should veto the placement of NATO anti-missile missiles in Turkey. The Patriot is NOT an offensive weapon.
I cannot describe to you how sick that makes me feel.
It has turned a vocal anti-War guy into a "Stuff you France and Germany". Next time they come crying for outside support let's see what they think of Vetoes then!
France has forgotten too soon the 157,000 Americans who died whilst clearing their country of Nazis.
France should be deeply ashamed.

I want to understand what you're saying, but I can't figure it out.  My question pertained to your very astute observation of American myopia.  But, here, it seems here like you are justifying the war because France and Germany have vetoed the placement of Patriot missiles in Turkey. 

And who said when one country helps the other, the other becomes a national rubber stamp?  When it really comes down to it, do we really want push-overs for allies?  I happened to think France and Germany are right for opposing Bush's agenda, which, by the way, is not necessarily an American agenda.


If the words "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" don't include the right to experiment with your own consciousness, then the Declaration of Independence isn't worth the hemp it was written on.
-- Terence McKenna

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#39 2003-02-11 12:18 pm

ShnickyShnack
::: title edited due to Satanic influences :::
From: Rockin' out
Registered: 2001-05-25
Posts: 22237

Re: Are you for the war or against it?


I will if you stop being so bloody stupid.

America did not NEED to go liberate the French.
Seeing as the useless twats couldnt do it themselves - and in the majority actively assisted the Nazis as collaborators, somebody had to do the dirty work.
Grow up, rectum.

Calm down. First of all, back in that war, the US was part of a global coalition, unlike now, when it's acting almost completely on its own.

Secondly, its mission in that war was to rid the world of fascism, particularly Nazi Germany. The American generals decided the best and easiest way for them to get at Germany was through France. They were anxious to liberate the oppressed French, true, but that is far from the only (or top) reason Normandy happened.

Look, many countries were once part of that global coalition. Does that mean that from now on they must all support whatever the US does, even if they disagree with it?

I don't remember Franklin Roosevelt telling his allies "I'll do you a favor now, but perhaps the time will come when you can do me a favor ..."

If such a bargain had been offered, the allies (and the American people) would have been horrified. The US was at war. Was it supposed to sit on its hands and do nothing? No, it went after its enemies as best it could because it was necessary to its own survival. And because it was the right thing to do.

The present direction of the US is selfish and immoral, and its allies are right for opposing it. I wish it would cause more people to stop and give all of this a second thought instead of sputtering incoherent arguments and insults.


Note: please delete this post.

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#40 2003-02-11 12:56 pm

Gr@sshopper
Redtailed mountain goat
From: Claremont CA
Registered: 2001-05-01
Posts: 1584

Re: Are you for the war or against it?

BUZZZZZ:wrong
Food aid
disaster relief
the list goes on and on, country after country.

Look at the numbers. We spend much more on military budgets (ie war and military assistance) than on foreign aide.

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