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right, and when China uses GDP to make an excuse for growth, it is even more ridiculous.

The West is by no means corruption free when it comes to the business world.  But, in many ways, we have improved the way we lilve with capitalism (and yes, I am pro capitalism).  We've seen problems in Southeast Asia and Africa, but what is going on in China is embarassing.

Here we have our developed morals and yet we let venture capitalists and large companies to pore in money into a system reminiscent of 1910s.

One could argue that the fact that we do pour money, and take labor from a country that has such a labor system means that we have not in fact developed our morals, but are deluding ourselves to that fact. The fact that we pour our money into China and support their, as I see, horrible version of capitalism says that we still dollars as more import than human decentcy, dignity and lives, as long as their not ours. I'll steal a acronym from the environmental debate, use NIMBY, which stands for Not In My Back Yard. IE, it's okay, as long as it isn't happening to me.

 
Chinese banks have $500 billion in bad debt, China routinely lies about its GDP (more like 2% y'all), and pirating is rampant.  Big deal right?

But labour officials grin when they say that the influx of peasants from the rural areas moving to the cities will keep wages down, there have been some violent crushing of labour uprises (especially in the north), and the firing/hiring system at state run companies is really disturbing.

Go to http://www.feer.com for more info.

I am not anti-Chinese by any means, I just think that we have an obligation to keep the same morals we have here over there.  Everyone focuses on Nike in Indonesia and DeBeers in Africa and being examples of a naughty west.  But China is loved and rewarded.  (olympics?)

Maybe we have a lax, hear no evil, see no evil, attitude towards China because we like cheap goods, teenage girls love the Kanji, and everyone eats the food (or at least psuedo-chinese food)?

My question is: Should we view investment in China and the purchasing of Chinese goods immoral considering the current landscape of the country?
Should we force change?

Ah, you already understand the NIMBY principle it seems.

My answer is that no, we should not keep up our economic relationships with China under these curcumstances. But I also feel that it goes deeper than that. Rather than just cutting off the top of the weed by cutting of economic ties to China, we should dig at the root of the problem and try to figure out why we did such a thing in the first place, so as to prevent it happening again.

Why do we keep supporting these large corporations?  Why do we support companies that violate our ethics? Is that dollar you save on the a T-shirt, or the $20 you spend on trendy gear, worth the support of what such a system does to people? Is it worth tarnishing the name of American freedom, the name of our principles?

My answer to your second question is also no, in the sense of the word force meaning to stop by physical action or economic sanction or international law. I don't think physical action is ethical, a people should have the rights to do things the way they feel is right. Who are we to tell the what to do? I would not be happy if the Chinese came and forced me to live my life differently by force. I don't think economic sanctions are terribly ethical either. Usually the people who make the decisions on what labor laws are to be passed aren't that badly hurt. It tends to be the working poor who are already being exploited that tend to get hurt. Take Cuba for an example. International law is not very powerful, and wouldn't do much. Our own leaders don't even take international law seriously. That's a possible route, but I feel it is ineffective.

My solution is to not buy stuff from China, and tell friends, neighboors, strangers, and whoever you feel comfortable about the problems you see in China, and why you don't buy products from there. I admit, grass roots actions aren't always the most effective, but I feel I am living cleaner by not buying from China, and also not supporting other actions I feel are immoral. Because honestly, I do not feel the pot should call the kettle black.

Yes China disturbs me, the government takes advantage of its control for it's own benefit not for the people.  They practically ignore people in the rural areas, those people have little or no access to health care and public education just began.  Their government is corrupt and is very abusive and repressive.  Maybe if they had followed the manifesto their people would have been better off.  I read a copy of Mao's writing's and it was very interesting everything he believed in, China does not do.  He wanted a democracy, equal rights, and peasants to be treated well.  Of course all of China's abuses give people an even worse opinion on socialism.

I read a copy of Mao's writing's and it was very interesting everything he believed in, China does not do.  He wanted a democracy, equal rights, and peasants to be treated well.  Of course all of China's abuses give people an even worse opinion on socialism.

Sorry, but you're about as freakin' misled as can be. Mao had absolute power over China for decades, and under his rule his country became one of the most impoverished and oppressive nations on earth. Go to Google and do a search for "The Great Leap Forward", and "The Cultural Revolution". Add to that "The Hundred Flowers Campaign" and "The Tienanmen Incident" (of 1976).

He was a toxic influence on his country. And it's not accurate to say he wanted a democracy. He wanted the Communist Party to run the whole show, the masses be damned (he even coined the cute phrase "democratic dictatorship"). As for wanting the peasants to be treated well, they suffered the most under his rule. Tens of millions of them starved, and though they had a brief "golden age" during the Cultural Revolution, they're now considered China's "Lost Generation", middle-aged and without education, money or hope.

Sorry to be so aggressive here. I just couldn't let that pass. Basically, Mao was an emperor and nothing more.

For many people in China life is better than it has ever been.  The problem is that for the 200 million Chinese for which life has improved, there are about 1 billion literal peasants--and don't think that life is ever going to really improve for them.  I've heard many, many times how Chinese communism is better than Indian democracy, but the current Chinese model is hard to sustain.

China's system is very precarious.  They have bad corporate tax laws, their banks have massive debts, and they routinely arrest business men for corruption.  Imagine a Japanese style financial crisis placed in a 2nd(or depending on where you go, 3rd) world country.

China is in a state of growth right now, but imagine what they'll be like if there is a crisis.  Their currently terrible human rights record will most likely fall further.

But right now, the West says nothing, so China changes nothing.  We're so interested in making and saving a buck that we turn our heads and make excuses.

Does anyone think it might be immoral to buy Chinese made products (like some Apple periphs)?

Ya I did not mean to imply everything was absolutely fantastic under mao.  I just thought it was interesting what his writing's said and what he actually did.

Even the soviet union thought china was evil.

Thank God China is evil.  We enjoy the fruits of their labors here.

Life has improved for them because of trade, that was the entire idea behind our current policy. You seem to have little understanding of China's history. They simply cannot be pressured the way you think with public opinion. That will just close them off again.

My brother was arrested and tortured in China many years ago. 

What was the problem with the Women's World Cup and the Olympics? I must have missed that.

OK. I see. Perhaps it's part of the thinking that the more China opens up and participates with the rest of the world the less repressive it becomes. Or perhaps it's just economics winning out over humanitarian considerations.

Hopefully these events will help China open up, but I doubt it.  Do you really think that the CP will suddenly allow humantarian access to prisions or that anyone will care about the state of the unemployed?

Besides, China is infamous for mistreating women--and it gets the WWC.

China is infamous for blocking information and misreporting news to make other countries look like lemmings of evil (watch chinese news on sat.  It is scary).  Yet here comes the event that proposes equality and kinship for all humans.  Welcome Beijing to your first olympics...

This topic caught my eye at the bottom of the screen and I could have sworn it said Chinese Constipation.