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Ra wrote:

At least in the US, Christians support israel the most.

More than the Jews?

What exactly is it that they "support?"  Their abuse of civilian refugees?  Their heavy-handed military occupation?

No. People who are trying to do good are often deviated by religion.

Personally I think religion makes it all that much easier to get a person to participate in his plans, because it eases the consciences and puffs up the moral pride and then points you in a direction. And who is to say whether it was the right direction? What about those preists that would bless the troops for battle? What about the hatred spread by racial, sexual, national, and moral bigotry, not just by the individuals of a church, but by its leaders who encourage these attitudes?

No way. Religion is the source that jacks up good hearted people with so much false integrity that even when hurting their fellow men, they feel they are doing "god's will."

A word on "Freedom," you are right when you say "As for my beliefs, it's all about choice and accountability. I do not care in anyway to be in control of anyone but myself." Thats your freedom. But if the reason you can do all those things you list is "you," then what is so great about religion? And werent all those things you listed already things you didnt want to do anyway? That false sense of moral superiority when you look down on people who are simply trying to feel better about things by self medicating could be your own self medication imo.

You say that people dont suddenly become Jesus look alikes by joining a religion, but I'm afraid that this goal is one of the reasons religion fails, because its all directed at keeping appearances rather than ignoring them. It keeps people separated and distant instead of joining them together in unity. Unfortunately, its a cop out and hypocrisy to not recognize the problems inherent in most religion.

As much as a religion exists symbiotically with the system of the world, it is a factor of the spirit of the world, and the world lies in the power of Satan. It is one of his institutions he uses to blind the hearts of men, and he does so both in a positive way (by members of those institutions) and in a negative way (the bad reputation generated by religion).

Ice Cream Man wrote:

those leaders are still individuals, and the people have to choose to follow individualy

"By their fruits" you would be able to know the truth, right? When the teaching of those institutions, regardless of which individuals carry the actions of those teachings out, are evil, I dont see how what you have said washes away the blame. That would be like saying Nazism cant be called "evil" because the "individuals" following nazism were making individual choices.

This is still stereotypes, and generalizations based on someone's bad experiences with individuals, who happened to be religious.

Let me ask you this: were all Pharisees bad people? After all, Paul was a Pharisee at one point, right? So when Jesus denounced their religious teachings, when he called them "serpents" and "offspring of vipers" and "sons of the devil," was Jesus just reacting to "bad experiences?"

I am capable and made those decisions because i was raised in a religion that taught those things. I however, don't "look down" on others because of their mistakes. I am equally in need of forgiveness for my own frailties which we ALL have. I do however have compassion on them and help them. I spend lots of time helping Becky, the paraplegic. And I've always been their to help my dad who can't keep a job or an apartment. You assumed that I was looking down, I wasn't. I love everyone, and that was the whole thing with Jesus existence. It's your problem if you want to demonize me for being free from the shackles of dependency.

I said only that it "could be."

I even pick up and bring Sarah's crazy, smoking grandmother home once a month to visit for a few days. And do i pass judgment on her NO.

Thats very nice of you not to look down on Sarah's "crazy smoking" grandmother.

The thing with Jesus was not about keeping up an "appearance", it was about truly loving one another, serving, and caring. For some individuals it may be about keeping up appearance. but that is their problem. Not the product of organized religion. And they will be accountable for that in the end. But I still being mortal, have not stance to say how accountable they are, only God knows that. The whole point is that we all help each other become better. And as far as I can tell it is your own intolerance that makes you blame their religion, and demonize them, as an excuse, merely to carry out your own agenda of anti-organized-religious beliefs.

And as far as I can tell, it is your own religious intolerance that seeks to demonize people critical of religion and portray them as seeking to put you as an individual down, when they are actually critical of the institution, merely to carry out your own agenda of promoting such institutions. That is why you corrupt the argument, to make it seem something other than it was.

Check it out: if your argument was logical, that institutions get a free pass because its the individuals commiting evil, not the religion (ala "guns dont kill people… "), then so should my criticism, because my ideas dont denounce any religion- people who think my ideas denounce religion! By your own logic, my "agenda" to speak out against "bad religion" is just as valuable as your "agenda" to redeem it.

One is supposed to "put off the natural man", if I'm not mistaken. And it is also true that all good things come from God, and all evil things are of the devil.

False. You dont get to claim man as either neutral or only good, because there is plenty evidence to suggest otherwise. Man is wicked, right? Even Jesus scorned the person who called him "Good" by telling him "no one is good but God." All bad things do NOT come from the devil, in fact, most of the time, men create their own calamity and evil.

However there are many religions that have perverted many of the teachings of God, while maintaining some points for truth. And if I remember correctly, the best place to hide a lie is between two truths.

But now your argument has muddied up whether there is any truth or any lies because you have pretended to say as though it is wrong to call religion evil, since only individuals work out the teachings. You defend the manmade institution against any judgment. So now with no standards we only have personal action, and no good, no evil, no truth, and no lies.

However the corruption comes about by satan acting on individuals.

How does he do this I wonder? How could he influence them? Is not religion such a means? The fruitage says "YES!"

And while satan may have dominion over the earth, our purpose here is to 'put off the natural man' and not remain 'an enemy to God'. There for the truth in the test is being able to resist evil, while being encircled about by it.

Yet did not Isaiah say "Turn away, turn away, get out of there, touch nothing unclean" and did not John write "Get out of her my people if you do not wish to share with her in her sins and do not wish to recieve part of her plagues?"

And as I predicted, you ignore the fact that even within an organization people are still individuals. We all have our frailties. And some are better at resisting some things than other.

Where is anyone attacking you or anyone else as an individual? Or denies that truth exists? No, but it is actually BECAUSE of truth, because of higher thought and ideals such as justice and virtue that even the atheist would join in accusing religion alongside those who believe in God- and myself even with passion! I believe in the saying of Jesus Christ, I love the one true God, and it pains me to my heart to see such treachery and vileness and evil apologized for time and time again! As if religion was more important than truth! You defend the NAME of God, but the TRUTH you allow to stand corrupted and befouled. You defend men, but God you have cast aside.

…Even if you don't believe in organized religion. Can one truly deny the truth in the second commandment. To "love thy neighbour as thyself" And if denied, would not they who deny this be a hate monger anyway, and of course work against any organization that might work to spread this truth. Satan wants us to be miserable like unto himself. So why would he want us to congregate, and fellowship with eachother? Or to experience joy in our friendships with people having like beliefs. Surely anit-organization would bring about Satans plan more rapidly.

Again, you act as if by accusing religion, that the love for fellowman is equally being stepped on. No. Rather, the freeing of love for fellowman should be dissected from religion. The fruitage of religion may have good qualities as well as bad, but Truth, if you believe in such a thing, or God if you love such a person, does not. Therefore, like a sword, remove the good from the bad and purify the truth of what is right and what is wrong. And then "every tree not producing fine fruit gets cut down and thrown into the fire."

Last edited by StaticAge (2006-11-19 11:29 am)

godsmac wrote:

Only the government can ban things, and my faith is the one thing that will stick with me if they try to take it away. They seem to be trying hard, but I doubt it will happen before the Lord returns. We often forget that the separation of church and state is nowhere to be found in the Constitution and ignorantly bring up demands like children not being able to pray in school. Keep trying Howard Stern, keep trying!

Oh Goody, fresh meat.

godsmac wrote:

Only the government can ban things, and my faith is the one thing that will stick with me if they try to take it away. They seem to be trying hard, but I doubt it will happen before the Lord returns. We often forget that the separation of church and state is nowhere to be found in the Constitution and ignorantly bring up demands like children not being able to pray in school. Keep trying Howard Stern, keep trying!

And the word "trinity" doesn't appear in the Bible. Doesn't mean the concept isn't there.

godsmac wrote:

Good question. Before figuring out the separation of church and state, maybe it would be good to define why freedom of religion seems mandatory, especially here in the US. Faith is a very personal thing. The funny thing is, this was founded on a belief in God..........not many religions. One nation, under God.

A phrase that didn't pop up until the 1950s, no relation to the founding of the nation.

Now His name is off the coin, off our buildings, out of our schools, and all that's left is for someone to replace Him.

Jesus had no problem with Caesar's name being on the coin, buildings, and schools.

You can see the wreckless abandon that's taking place.......immorality, greed, self-gratification, hatred, etc.

You mean all the things that the O.T. prophets preached against? The things Paul wrote against? Nothing new.

All these things weren't as public when this nation was based on their belief in God.

So it's okay as long as you aren't aware of it? What?

The battle for separation of church and state is over. The battle for freedom of religion will be over one day......sooner than later I'm afraid.

With the majority of the U.S. and nearly all of Congress claiming to be Christian, you actually are afraid Christianity will be outlawed? Are you serious?

No scare tactics needed. Why do you think the news is circling around Jerusalem more each day?

Probably because of our alliance with Israel and all the violence going on there, affecting the way that oil-rich and Jihad-minded Arab nations view us.

::cues jaws theme song::

Last edited by Zander (2006-12-09 12:22 pm)

Ya, its so immoral now a days. It was ever so much better 100 years ago. Women knew their place, so did - I'm a racist cow -, kids werent coddled and spent their days being productive working in factories.
Ah yes, the good old days when God ruled America.

Pariah wrote:

Ya, its so immoral now a days. It was ever so much better 100 years ago. Women knew their place, so did - I'm a racist cow -, kids werent coddled and spent their days being productive working in factories.
Ah yes, the good old days when God ruled America.

Yeah, xianites might as well put up stonehenges and apollonian temples and mayan pyramids etc, because the god they want to merge politics with is no different from all the others imo. If god needs politics to survive, what a lifeless idol it must be that they bow down to.

user wrote:

godsmac wrote:

Good question. Before figuring out the separation of church and state, maybe it would be good to define why freedom of religion seems mandatory, especially here in the US. Faith is a very personal thing. The funny thing is, this was founded on a belief in God..........not many religions. One nation, under God.

Now His name is off the coin, off our buildings, out of our schools, and all that's left is for someone to replace Him. You can see the wreckless abandon that's taking place.......immorality, greed, self-gratification, hatred, etc. All these things weren't as public when this nation was based on their belief in God. The battle for separation of church and state is over. The battle for freedom of religion will be over one day......sooner than later I'm afraid. No scare tactics needed. Why do you think the news is circling around Jerusalem more each day?

Freedom of Religion seems mandatory?

God's name is off the coin? Off our buildings?

What fantasy world are you living in?

Reality seems a little beyond this poor fellow.

Paranoia so powerful it changes history and catholics, puritans, native american religions, lutherans, deists, etc who were in the American colonies partly because of religious freedom, fought a war to stay here tax free, and drew up a bill of rights for their consitution preserving that freedom of religion(s). So potent that it erases phrases that still exist on money and on public buildings everywhere.

Pariah wrote:

Ya, the puritans came here for freedom LOL.....that never gets old.

Well, free to hang witches at any rate.

Metacell wrote:

You can basically tell when religion has gone bad when it starts acting paranoid and supposing that anything is other than the way its supposed to be.

So how long does Christianity last? Three centuries before the purges kick in?