Forums | MacLife
You are not logged in.
- Index
- » Ministry of Free Thought
- » Rockets fired into Israel (w/ end of world sidetrack)
#151 2007-06-25 12:17 am
- mo' ron
- PS3 4 EVA
- From: NC, USA
- Registered: 2002-10-15
- Posts: 14247
Re: Rockets fired into Israel (w/ end of world sidetrack)
user wrote:
Hank Rearden wrote:
user wrote:
I don't believe any gods exist.
I'm always puzzled, though, by how you think that everything got here in the first place.
I don't know, but I think invisible supernatural intelligences are extremely unlikely as a cause.
It depends on how you define "intelligence". THe rules of the universe itself I think can be construed as a form of intelligence. There are likely other rules that exist for the creation of universes outside of the universe that also could be construed as intelligence.
Especially the strange things we have come up with. A belief in creator gods is just giving a human intelligence to natural objects.
If you're talking about human intelligence, then I agree. It seems to me that all religions i'm familiar with graft human perceptions on what they think a god is like, for the purposes of comfort and politics.
What is the difference between Vista and OSX?
- Microsoft employees are excited about OSX.
Offline
#152 2007-06-25 2:15 am
Re: Rockets fired into Israel (w/ end of world sidetrack)
Tallgeese wrote:
No, it's blue.
Really? Where I am now, I look out and see a clear sky with nothing but black void behind it and all the stars shining through.
Ho Eyo He Hum
Offline
#153 2007-06-25 7:24 am
Re: Rockets fired into Israel (w/ end of world sidetrack)
mo' ron wrote:
StaticAge wrote:
In my speculation, God always was, at least in an abstract way, infinitely. But became God concretely only by the creation of that which was not God.
That view is somewhat similar to Scott Adam's view in God's Debris (or were you the one that originally linked this...).
I would like to point out though, just in case it need pointing out, that the existence of god in this manner has no bearing on the atheist/theist debate or science/religion because it does nothing to advocate or detract from an interventionist god, which is really the core of those issues. Whether we should do things one way or the other because of the perceived will of some great diving intelligence that's interested.
I have read bits of that book at a friends house and thought it was pretty cool. I should pick it up. I think Sartre and Hegel (and maybe Fichte) were the thinkers behind my speculations. And probably Neon Genesis Evangelion (which if you know your Fichte Hegel and Sartre, makes a lot of sense in the last two episodes).
What you said is very true, but could also be said for other ideas like multiple universes to explain "fine tuning" or suggesting that consciousness is epiphenomenal.
"Live with your head in the lion's mouth. I want you to overcome 'em with yeses, undermine 'em with grins, agree 'em to death and destruction, let 'em swoller you till they vomit or bust wide open." -Ralph Ellison
"Overpower, overcome" -Cro-Mags
Offline
#154 2007-06-25 7:57 am
Re: Rockets fired into Israel (w/ end of world sidetrack)
ShnickyShnack wrote:
Unfortunately the Bible doesn't say where God came from.
Doesn't it say he was, is, and always will be?
Time is a phenomena of the created universe.
It does not apply to God - is the alpha and omega, the beginning and the end. He did not "come from" anywhere - he is.
In her right hand Jenny held the Bible of her mother
Jenny had a pistol in the other
-- Steve Taylor
Offline
#155 2007-06-25 8:27 am
- user
- Your plastic pal who's fun to be with
- From: I'm not getting you down, am I
- Registered: 2001-10-15
- Posts: 16030
Re: Rockets fired into Israel (w/ end of world sidetrack)
resedit wrote:
ShnickyShnack wrote:
Unfortunately the Bible doesn't say where God came from.
Doesn't it say he was, is, and always will be?
Time is a phenomena of the created universe.
It does not apply to God - is the alpha and omega, the beginning and the end. He did not "come from" anywhere - he is.
So it makes perfect sense that this invisible supernatural intellegnce just IS?
Why does it not also make sense that the natural visible Universe just IS?
Aw, he's no fun, he fell right over.
Unless you become as little children, there's no way you will believe this crap.
Offline
#156 2007-06-25 9:22 am
Re: Rockets fired into Israel (w/ end of world sidetrack)
It does not make sense by the laws of the natural world.
It is not logical to apply the laws of the natural world to the supernatural world.
In her right hand Jenny held the Bible of her mother
Jenny had a pistol in the other
-- Steve Taylor
Offline
#157 2007-06-25 9:24 am
Re: Rockets fired into Israel (w/ end of world sidetrack)
There are certain types of mathematics that have laws that do not apply to other types of mathematics, and when doing a proof in one type - you can use laws from the other type.
Same thing.
In her right hand Jenny held the Bible of her mother
Jenny had a pistol in the other
-- Steve Taylor
Offline
#158 2007-06-25 10:10 am
- user
- Your plastic pal who's fun to be with
- From: I'm not getting you down, am I
- Registered: 2001-10-15
- Posts: 16030
Re: Rockets fired into Israel (w/ end of world sidetrack)
resedit wrote:
It does not make sense by the laws of the natural world.
Why?
resedit wrote:
It is not logical to apply the laws of the natural world to the supernatural world.
From what any of us can tell, the supernatural is just a concept in our minds, so I suppose you could apply anything you want to it.
Aw, he's no fun, he fell right over.
Unless you become as little children, there's no way you will believe this crap.
Offline
#159 2007-06-25 10:41 am
- ShnickyShnack
- ::: title edited due to Satanic influences :::
- From: Rockin' out
- Registered: 2001-05-25
- Posts: 22237
Re: Rockets fired into Israel (w/ end of world sidetrack)
Like I said, when it comes to the origins of the universe, both religion and science hook up in wussville. "There was no time, therefore (He/it) can be said to have always been here. (He/it) just IS."
It's a lame technicality. I'd have more respect for both sides if they'd just admit they don't have a frigging clue.
Note: please delete this post.
Offline
#160 2007-06-25 10:47 am
- Chickenhawk
- Snark Snark Snark Snark
- From: Being Snarky
- Registered: 2005-06-01
- Posts: 5821
Re: Rockets fired into Israel (w/ end of world sidetrack)
ShnickyShnack wrote:
Like I said, when it comes to the origins of the universe, both religion and science hook up in wussville. "There was no time, therefore (He/it) can be said to have always been here. (He/it) just IS."
How is a gigantic smurfing explosion wussville?
It's a lame technicality. I'd have more respect for both sides if they'd just admit they don't have a frigging clue.
I'd say most scientists admit the limitations of our powers of observation these days. Its the assertions made by the religious folk that "god will smite the wicked" and "god will intervene" that get most people on this side of the fence. We know what we can observe. If god exists in that manner of speaking, then we should have been able to observe him(her) in some kind of way. Or god is deceptive, which is not fitting for a so-called benevolent being.
The recent medical controversy over whether vaccinations cause autism reveals a habit of human cognition—thinking anecdotally comes naturally, whereas thinking scientifically does not. -- Michael Shermer
Offline
#161 2007-06-25 11:13 am
- ShnickyShnack
- ::: title edited due to Satanic influences :::
- From: Rockin' out
- Registered: 2001-05-25
- Posts: 22237
Re: Rockets fired into Israel (w/ end of world sidetrack)
Chickenhawk wrote:
ShnickyShnack wrote:
Like I said, when it comes to the origins of the universe, both religion and science hook up in wussville. "There was no time, therefore (He/it) can be said to have always been here. (He/it) just IS."
How is a gigantic smurfing explosion wussville?
It's wussville because it doesn't make sense. No universe, than bang, a universe?
It's a lame technicality. I'd have more respect for both sides if they'd just admit they don't have a frigging clue.
I'd say most scientists admit the limitations of our powers of observation these days. Its the assertions made by the religious folk that "god will smite the wicked" and "god will intervene" that get most people on this side of the fence. We know what we can observe. If god exists in that manner of speaking, then we should have been able to observe him(her) in some kind of way. Or god is deceptive, which is not fitting for a so-called benevolent being.
I'll admit that faith makes inquiry a more dicey affair. However there still seems to be a point at which people of any stripe tend to shrug at the gap in knowledge, offering lame-o guesses.
Note: please delete this post.
Offline
#162 2007-06-25 11:46 am
- Chickenhawk
- Snark Snark Snark Snark
- From: Being Snarky
- Registered: 2005-06-01
- Posts: 5821
Re: Rockets fired into Israel (w/ end of world sidetrack)
ShnickyShnack wrote:
Chickenhawk wrote:
ShnickyShnack wrote:
Like I said, when it comes to the origins of the universe, both religion and science hook up in wussville. "There was no time, therefore (He/it) can be said to have always been here. (He/it) just IS."
How is a gigantic smurfing explosion wussville?
It's wussville because it doesn't make sense. No universe, than bang, a universe?
Not all versions of the theory say that there was no universe before. The problem is proving. Its impossible.
It's a lame technicality. I'd have more respect for both sides if they'd just admit they don't have a frigging clue.
I'd say most scientists admit the limitations of our powers of observation these days. Its the assertions made by the religious folk that "god will smite the wicked" and "god will intervene" that get most people on this side of the fence. We know what we can observe. If god exists in that manner of speaking, then we should have been able to observe him(her) in some kind of way. Or god is deceptive, which is not fitting for a so-called benevolent being.
I'll admit that faith makes inquiry a more dicey affair. However there still seems to be a point at which people of any stripe tend to shrug at the gap in knowledge, offering lame-o guesses.
There's not much more scientists can do when theorizing areas smaller than 10^-43 meters, or back before the big bang, or etc. etc. beyond our observation areas. The problem with, say, string theory, is that they would require an accelerator > 1 light year across to be able to probe to distances that would prove string theory (with today's technology). The problem with some theoretical science these days is that they are forced to only rely on mathematical proofs. The problem with that, is that there are many things that look good on paper, but just do not happen. The greek natural philosophers had a similar approach, and it led to some bizzare theories (an interesting note: the greek natural philosophers did have some grasp, albeit very limited, of the duality of light. But that's another thread). The limitations of our technology (or possibly the physical universe itself) is causing theoretical physicists to go to some very bizzare theories to try and resolve the universe. You might call it lame-o guesses, but some might call it lateral thinking.
The recent medical controversy over whether vaccinations cause autism reveals a habit of human cognition—thinking anecdotally comes naturally, whereas thinking scientifically does not. -- Michael Shermer
Offline
#163 2007-06-25 12:02 pm
- user
- Your plastic pal who's fun to be with
- From: I'm not getting you down, am I
- Registered: 2001-10-15
- Posts: 16030
Re: Rockets fired into Israel (w/ end of world sidetrack)
Certainly no reason to give up and just say that god did it which is no answer at all.
Aw, he's no fun, he fell right over.
Unless you become as little children, there's no way you will believe this crap.
Offline
#164 2007-06-25 2:47 pm
- Goat on Parade
- Member
- Registered: 2004-08-11
- Posts: 532
Re: Rockets fired into Israel (w/ end of world sidetrack)
a wizard did it
Offline
#165 2007-06-25 3:02 pm
- Chickenhawk
- Snark Snark Snark Snark
- From: Being Snarky
- Registered: 2005-06-01
- Posts: 5821
Re: Rockets fired into Israel (w/ end of world sidetrack)
The smart man's money is on raptor jesus.
The recent medical controversy over whether vaccinations cause autism reveals a habit of human cognition—thinking anecdotally comes naturally, whereas thinking scientifically does not. -- Michael Shermer
Offline
#166 2007-06-25 5:25 pm
Re: Rockets fired into Israel (w/ end of world sidetrack)
We don't have an inkling, but we know that the Great Red Hawk will smite the Anvil on the 6th year of The Chinese Juggler whilst the Prince of the Seventh Horn descends from the Seven Bladed Windmill.
So keep an eye on Lybia this week. Seriously.
Ho Eyo He Hum
Offline
- Index
- » Ministry of Free Thought
- » Rockets fired into Israel (w/ end of world sidetrack)
