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#1 2008-02-27 5:04 pm

resedit
Chicken Little
Royal Wombat
From: /dev/null
Registered: 1999-11-01
Posts: 51878
Website

Should I join the Sierra club?

Serious question.
I know they promote global warming hysteria which I disagree with, but at least that hysteria doesn't do any real harm.

The reason I am considering joining is a desire to see the species Rana sierrae and Rana muscosa restored.

These are high elevation western stream frogs that breed primarily in alpine lakes, ponds, and streams. They have been extirpated from over 90% of their range in the central and northern Sierra Nevadas, and are virtually extinct in the southern part of their range (the 2003 fire in southern california elimanted most of what was left down there, there are probably fewer than 100 of the frogs in the southern population in the wild).

The primary cause of their decline is the introduction of trout into these alpine lakes. Trout never made it to the lakes naturally, so the frogs evolved (yes - I said evolved - take a deep breath and get over the shock) without them as a predator.

Researchers have demonstrated that the tadpoles show a response to natural predators that cause them to try and evade them (garter snakes) but show no response to trout as a predator.

Researches have shown that when trout are removed from a pond without the frogs that are near a troutless pond with the frogs, within a year the frogless pond is full of tadpoles.

Even remote lakes and ponds have often been planted with trout, Department of Fish & Games drops trout fingerlings from aircraft.

What sickens me is that DF&G continues to plant trout in these lakes and ponds. They have stopped in places where the frog is known, but how the smurf is the species suppose to recover from its almost extinct status if former range is kept stocked?

I think the state needs to be sued and ordered to stop ALL planting of trout in alpine lakes where the trout are not native. Further, I think the state should be required to pay for the removal of trout from lakes and ponds near known populations of the frogs. As the frogs naturally increase their range, more removal should be done.

I want to join an environmental group that has a legal department that files these kinds of lawsuits.

Is the Sierra club right for me, or is there another group that is better?

I asked the Sierra club, but I want opinions from the eco-freaks here who have experience with multiple organizations.

As far as those who like to fish for trout in alpine lakes - well, some of the lakes are big enough they'll never get the breeding trout out, enjoy those lakes. Or go to Minnesota.


There are two kinds of people who keep rattlesnakes.
Those who have been bit, and those who will be bit. - Al Wolf.

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#2 2008-02-27 5:12 pm

Tallgeese
Homo loquax nonnumquam sapiens
Registered: 2000-10-17
Posts: 34923

Re: Should I join the Sierra club?

I can't answer that question, but I usually don't agree with most groups' aims so I ask myself these things:

- Would getting the things I disagree with be worse than not getting the things I agree with?
- If I go with a more targeted group, will they have the same effect or will I just be donating money/time when standing on the street corner handing out pamphlets would have the same effect (none)?


I still believe in liberalism today as much as I ever did, but, oh, there was a happy time when I believed in liberals.

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#3 2008-02-27 7:28 pm

dv
Negusa Negest
Moderator
From: Minneapolis, MN
Registered: 1999-08-30
Posts: 18388

Re: Should I join the Sierra club?

Well, I think my grandparents used to be members of the Sierra club. So I have to assume they aren't nearly as wacko-lefty as, say, PETA.

I don't really want to rehash the argument here, but I think we can agree that global warming is accepted enough that any environmental group is going to have some sympathies in that direction.


"Now commences the process of cutting off the head, which generally takes from an hour to an hour and a half by an expert workman with a sharp blade." -Reuben Delano, Wanderings and Adventures

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#4 2008-02-28 6:04 am

Pariah
James Carville Fan..
From: Belly Of The Beast, Oklahoma!
Registered: 2001-05-24
Posts: 19139

Re: Should I join the Sierra club?

The Sierra Club has great local groups in many areas that actually do things locally so they are much better than more centralized organizations.
You should go to a meeting of your local group to see what sort of people are in it.


But now the sun beats down on the asphalt land
Like a hammer invoked from God's left hand
What little still grows cringes in the shadows till the night fall...

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#5 2008-02-28 9:00 am

user
Your plastic pal who's fun to be with
From: I'm not getting you down, am I
Registered: 2001-10-15
Posts: 16516

Re: Should I join the Sierra club?

Sierra is VERY oriented to promoting legislation to accomplish their goals, which is not a bad thing. I went to a meeting once, but at the time I think I was more interested in a hiking club.

On the GW issue, well, maybe you'll learn something....speaking to people about it in person may be better than an on-line discussion.


Aw, he's no fun, he fell right over.

Unless you become as little children, there's no way you will believe this crap.

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#6 2008-02-28 9:54 am

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Chicken Little
Royal Wombat
From: /dev/null
Registered: 1999-11-01
Posts: 51878
Website

Re: Should I join the Sierra club?

The GW thing isn't really an issue.
As dvpierce pointed out - there probably isn't an environmental group with more than 3 members that doesn't take the man made gw stand. It doesn't really harm anyone to take that stand, if I can get in contact with others who agree the fish planting needs to be stopped - gw warming alarmists or not - we may be able to save the species and help it recover some its former habitat, which will help the Sierra's in general as the frog is ecologically a dietary staple to many other animals (mountain garter snakes, etc.) helping them recover as well.


There are two kinds of people who keep rattlesnakes.
Those who have been bit, and those who will be bit. - Al Wolf.

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#7 2008-02-28 2:08 pm

MacAddict4Life
Member
From: Castro Valley
Registered: 2000-04-24
Posts: 2797
Website

Re: Should I join the Sierra club?

And yet, as they fight nuclear power plants, they guarantee we have to keep using coal power, making global warming worse.

They oppose any kind of quality forest management, even though tree density is far, far higher than it should be in many places around Tahoe, leading to more fuel for bigger, hotter, more destructive fires. When there is too much fuel, you burn a hot enough fire to destroy healthy trees, not just dead and dry ones.

It sounds like the things you support that they are standing for would be very very good things. But there must be a more direct way to support good things, as I think the Sierra Club brings too many negatives with that positive.


http://www.ernestphillips.com/
"Of all the habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indespensible supports." -George Washington

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#8 2008-02-29 6:03 am

resedit
Chicken Little
Royal Wombat
From: /dev/null
Registered: 1999-11-01
Posts: 51878
Website

Re: Should I join the Sierra club?

The good news is it seems the Federal government is putting pressure on F&G to stop planting any trout in lakes that are not easily reached by car, and that trout removal is being undertaken in several localities as a further experiment to test the effectiveness (the results seem quite clear to me - one of the researchers sent me his published paper, 3 years after removal from several lakes the frog populations were heavy in those lakes).

The bad news is - in 1924 - nineteen twenty four a naturalist published a book noting the frogs dissapeared from lakes where trout were introduced. That's three decades before fish & game started dropping trout fingerlings by plane in every freaking lake they could find.

Last edited by resedit (2008-02-29 6:03 am)


There are two kinds of people who keep rattlesnakes.
Those who have been bit, and those who will be bit. - Al Wolf.

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