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frankly wrote:

Pariah wrote:

wellfleation wrote:

Well what I just don't understand why PC Magazine (of all mags) and MANY others continue to rank Apple as one of the best computers. Consumer Reports as well, one of the only truly non-biased mags.

Things that make you go hmmmmmmm...

Possibly because Apple has been getting the exact same sort of uncritical, non analytical, "winner" biased reviews that used to drive Mac fans crazy when the same reviewers were looking at anything Microsoft back in the day?
Many of us knew that the great reviews MS used to get were ad rev bought bribed reviews.
Same thing now, just in Apple's favor.

Please try to keep up. There are no advertisements in Consumer Reports. AND they don't let companies use their ratings to advertise their product. Period.

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/abou … /index.htm

Oh, please. CR has never been a good source of tech info. Not to mention that they used to run ridiculously inaccurate reviews of Macs vis a vis PCs not all that long ago.
We used to make fun of CR around here.

frankly wrote:

Mr. T wrote:

ScifiterX wrote:

That can't really be honestly determined since as has oft times pointed out most computer makers haven't really made honest attempts at all-in-ones (outside of Apple & Sony). If people have no choice but to buy towers, guess what they are gonna buy.

That just doesn't make any sense to me.

Wow. And that is why we go around and around in circles. That statement by Sci was so unequivocally logical that it absolutely baffles me that it doesn't make any sense to you.

First, the premise that most computer makers haven't really made honest attempts at all-in-ones is incorrect and (forgive me, Sci) elitist.  For one thing, the AIO was a popular form factor during the early days of the PC.  Once towers hit the market, consumers made their decision, and the rest is history.  AIO's have always remained in the PC market, for the very same reason the iMac exists now; they've just been relegated to a minority within the marketplace.  After all these years, they haven't caught on again simply because the collective will of the consumer doesn't justify their creation in greater numbers.  Any explanation to the contrary implies that consumers do not drive demand in a free-market economy, which doesn't make any sense (Occam's Razor).

You may disagree if you wish, but this point is not open to debate.

Last edited by Mr. T (2008-07-04 2:58 am)

Bat wrote:

Interestingly, I miswrote earlier. Former Aspyr coder Brad Oliver's blog is back up... perhaps because Brad recently left the mothership to resume his old job at Aspyr in May, since I last looked. Thread updated here; relevant entry reads

Aspyr 2, Electric Code-aloo

So today is my last day at Apple and my first day back at my old job at Aspyr. I decided after after a fair amount of waffling that I really enjoyed my old job much more than the new one at Apple. It got to the point where I wanted to wake up each morning and look forward to my job - and I wasn't. I don't know if I can go into specifics about what all I've been up to the last few months, but I would stress that it wasn't a "people" issue - Kent, Geoff and John Stauffer were all very kind and very willing to work with me. But Apple is a large company with a focused direction, and it felt like at times Apple was the lover that I was hoping to change to fit my own needs, which is not a good way to approach a job. ;-)

So it's back to Aspyr. I remember when I left Aspyr last year that I was kinda bummed because I loved my job and working with the people there, so it's a very easy thing for me to go back, and I feel like I can pick back up and get rolling really easily and quickly. I've worked with this team since 1999 so it's a lot like going back to family after a summer backpacking around Europe.

It's hard to help but wonder if Apple's lack of enthusiasm for games was a factor in that.

Or a lack of enthusiasm for enthusiasm.

Mr. T wrote:

frankly wrote:

Mr. T wrote:

That just doesn't make any sense to me.

Wow. And that is why we go around and around in circles. That statement by Sci was so unequivocally logical that it absolutely baffles me that it doesn't make any sense to you.

First, the premise that most computer makers haven't really made honest attempts at all-in-ones is incorrect and (forgive me, Sci) elitist.  For one thing, the AIO was a popular form factor during the early days of the PC.  Once towers hit the market, consumers made their decision, and the rest is history.  AIO's have always remained in the PC market, for the very same reason the iMac exists now; they've just been relegated to a minority within the marketplace.  After all these years, they haven't caught on again simply because the collective will of the consumer doesn't justify their creation in greater numbers.  Any explanation to the contrary implies that consumers do not drive demand in a free-market economy, which doesn't make any sense (Occam's Razor).

You may disagree if you wish, but this point is not open to debate.

His reference to "honest attempt" means an effort to actually make a GOOD AIO, not just to slap something together. Of course consumers don't buy the PC AIOs. They are pieces of smurf. I wouldn't recommend on to anyone I thought should buy a PC but I wouldn't hesitate to recommend an iMac to someone that I thought would be better served by a Mac. In fact, I have a friend that I've made recommendations to in the past and when he needed a Mac (for home use and for the kid's school work) I absolutely without hesitation recommended an iMac and it has served his family's every need without hesitation. And when that same friend was better served by a PC (for his business where he had a specific couple of apps he needed) I recommended a tower because there isn't one AIO that even comes close to being worth recommending.

Your analysis sucks on this particular topic. I know you think you have it nailed down but those of us that take a realistic look at the AIO PC offerings instead of the pie in the sky look that you take are always amazed by your analysis of the situation. It really is amusing at this point.

frankly wrote:

Mr. T wrote:

frankly wrote:

Wow. And that is why we go around and around in circles. That statement by Sci was so unequivocally logical that it absolutely baffles me that it doesn't make any sense to you.

First, the premise that most computer makers haven't really made honest attempts at all-in-ones is incorrect and (forgive me, Sci) elitist.  For one thing, the AIO was a popular form factor during the early days of the PC.  Once towers hit the market, consumers made their decision, and the rest is history.  AIO's have always remained in the PC market, for the very same reason the iMac exists now; they've just been relegated to a minority within the marketplace.  After all these years, they haven't caught on again simply because the collective will of the consumer doesn't justify their creation in greater numbers.  Any explanation to the contrary implies that consumers do not drive demand in a free-market economy, which doesn't make any sense (Occam's Razor).

You may disagree if you wish, but this point is not open to debate.

His reference to "honest attempt" means an effort to actually make a GOOD AIO, not just to slap something together. Of course consumers don't buy the PC AIOs. They are pieces of smurf. I wouldn't recommend on to anyone I thought should buy a PC but I wouldn't hesitate to recommend an iMac to someone that I thought would be better served by a Mac. In fact, I have a friend that I've made recommendations to in the past and when he needed a Mac (for home use and for the kid's school work) I absolutely without hesitation recommended an iMac and it has served his family's every need without hesitation. And when that same friend was better served by a PC (for his business where he had a specific couple of apps he needed) I recommended a tower because there isn't one AIO that even comes close to being worth recommending.

Your analysis sucks on this particular topic. I know you think you have it nailed down but those of us that take a realistic look at the AIO PC offerings instead of the pie in the sky look that you take are always amazed by your analysis of the situation. It really is amusing at this point.

Oh please, AIOs are as old as the hills and there have been plenty of good attempts at that form.
The trouble is that given a choice consumers reject AIOs in favor of towers. For many very good reasons.
The Current iMac line is just a continuation of the same old crap.
Laptop CPUs have made zero progress catching up with desktop parts, if anything the gap is widening.
Even Apple is working on GPU acceleration in the future, a technology that the Apple desk top line is uniquely unsuited to support. Given Jobs obsession with holding back his customers as much as possible I have to wonder why he is having Appe even other with this tech.
Its not like Jobs cares about performance. All he cares about is lock in and disposiblity. Its funny really, to see a man who hates the tech running a tech company.

frankly wrote:

Bat wrote:

frankly wrote:

Not really any need for that. We should just change the topic since they are still supposedly only selling this vapor in Bulgaria:
http://www.efi-x.com/index.php?option=c … ge=english

Taiwan as well, according to that chart.

Ummm, a little green dot doesn't do you much good if they don't list the dealer...

So you're going to Bulgaria for yours?

Ole Taipei is awash in electronics/PC parts dealers. They may have too many to list there, but only one in the Western Hemisphere.

I thought Space Ghost's dimension was Cartoonia.

I doubt Freud was conversant with either 21st century neuropsych or the PC biz. Neither were the designers of the Eniac.

frankly wrote:

Mr. T wrote:

After reading through the past couple of pages, I really don't know what the topic of the argument is, anymore.  The Mac's hardware value lies in its superior engineering factor + style + power savings.  The PC's hardware value lies in its superior technology + expansion + monitor choice + bottom line.  Is one type of value inherently better than the other?  -- I have no idea-- But upon walking into a typical computer store and gazing at the cornucopia of towers, it's fairly obvious that, for most consumers, the value lies in the latter. 

So, is that what this has all been about?  Can we all just agree on this and go home?

You are right that each has value. What upsets some of us is when you and others claim that there is no way there is any value in the Mac at the current price points. That is what is maddening. There may be no value to YOU, but just as you think those PC's have value, I don't. But I completely understand why someone else would find value in them. It just pisses off those of us that do find value in a Mac at the price they are being sold for when we are told that we are mindless idiots that are simply bewildered by shiny boxes. I for one know damn well that I'm smart enough to make an educated decision and buy the computer that best suits my needs. The MacBook Pro is currently that computer. And anyone that thinks I paid too much needs to step up and show me the computer that I should have bought instead because I have not yet seen one that is better and $500 less.

Frank

I can only speak for myself, but I've never said anything of the sort.  I dropped $80 on a G5 enclosure for my build, simply because I thought it was the best-designed case on the net at the time.  And I dropped another $30 on an Apple keyboard, because I appreciated the compact design (that's before discovering the thing's a damn dust trap).  And yes, I was dazzled a bit by that shiny Apple logo.  I know that there is a value in a polished, small form, well put-together machine.  The difference is that I don't generalize this belief to the majority of computer users, because in truth, most folks just aren't that passionate about how a machine is put together.  Consumers predominantly want the best specs for the cheapest price.

Last edited by Mr. T (2008-07-04 1:30 pm)

ScifiterX wrote:

Yeah we all saw the Gateway Profiles (costing twice as much as the iMac for comparable setups), the eOne (underpowered by eMachine standards) ePower (less powerful than the oOne), The Gateway One (currently sold with less powerful processor then a low end Mini and yet costing as much ad a mid range iMac)

The Dell XPS One is somewhat comparable but has an inferior graphics card and cost $100 more (Isn't XPS their gaming line??) Much the same with Vaio LT series (though it price is $200 -$1200 more but it has Blu-Ray in 3 of the models.)

BTW (not to make a point, just a comment)

There will also be the Asus "eee monitor" soon, which is a pretty nice machine (for "everyday" uses at least) at 500$. Seems very reasonable for plenty of people.

Last edited by pirloui (2008-07-04 2:54 pm)

I know I certain like my ASUS Burner.

Bat wrote:

frankly wrote:

Bat wrote:

Taiwan as well, according to that chart.

Ummm, a little green dot doesn't do you much good if they don't list the dealer...

So you're going to Bulgaria for yours?

Ole Taipei is awash in electronics/PC parts dealers. They may have too many to list there, but only one in the Western Hemisphere.

I thought Space Ghost's dimension was Cartoonia.

I doubt Freud was conversant with either 21st century neuropsych or the PC biz. Neither were the designers of the Eniac.

1) I really doubt they don't have a dealer listed because tehy have "too many to list." That is reaching a bit.

2) Space Ghost will simply zap you with his power bands and this conversation would be over

3) Pariah's strange fascination and hatred of all things Jobs seems to go much deeper than any actual hardware lineup. That is why we need Freud to figure out what is at the bottom of it.

matt wrote:

A 56k modem is seen as more important than a NIC and a media reader?

I don't want a 56k modem. It's a waste of electricity and a waste of money.

I don't see where you get 'more important;' it's simply listed before the other two. And surprisingly...

Comcast has run a national advertising campaign featuring two married turtles named the "Slowskys", who don't want to move into the faster world of cable internet, as they prefer a slower connection.  Surprisingly, a new study from the Pew Internet and American Life Project shows that many Americans are much more like the Slowskys than one would think.

The new study indicates that a significant percent of Americans would not want to upgrade from broadband even if was offered for the same price as their dialup connection.

Users Still Cling to Dialup

frankly wrote:

1) I really doubt they don't have a dealer listed because tehy have "too many to list." That is reaching a bit.

Perhaps more than a few, which is what there's space for. I wouldn't know, but Taipei's streets are lined with vendors.

3) Pariah's strange fascination and hatred of all things Jobs seems to go much deeper than any actual hardware lineup. That is why we need Freud to figure out what is at the bottom of it.

My point was that, in each case, those folks' knowledge is so dated as to be nearly irrelevant, no matter how smart they were. Newton was fairly sharp too, but I wouldn't want him working quantum mechanics these days.

frankly wrote:

Bat wrote:

frankly wrote:

Ummm, a little green dot doesn't do you much good if they don't list the dealer...

So you're going to Bulgaria for yours?

Ole Taipei is awash in electronics/PC parts dealers. They may have too many to list there, but only one in the Western Hemisphere.

I thought Space Ghost's dimension was Cartoonia.

I doubt Freud was conversant with either 21st century neuropsych or the PC biz. Neither were the designers of the Eniac.

1) I really doubt they don't have a dealer listed because tehy have "too many to list." That is reaching a bit.

2) Space Ghost will simply zap you with his power bands and this conversation would be over

3) Pariah's strange fascination and hatred of all things Jobs seems to go much deeper than any actual hardware lineup. That is why we need Freud to figure out what is at the bottom of it.

I do have a complex view of Jobs. I see him as a genius but a deeply flawed genius. I deeply admire the way his "take no prisoners" attitude created neXT and generally feel that his return to Apple was a great thing that delivered us a great new OS.
Steve's anal fixation on quality pays off in the ever improving polish of OSX and the Apple bundled apps.
That is where Steve shines.
Where he sucks is where his OCD-esque fixation on fan noise comes in and his hatred of any sort of expandability. A substantial issue related to why he was drumed out of Apple was his constant battling with the engineers over cutting features, cutting expandability and removing fans.
SJ is a visionary but a broken one. Even as he delivered us a great new OS and app bundle he has remained fixated on his "appliance" vision and that vision is why we are stuck with iMacs and Minis.
I think Apple's software has done nothing but get better under the reign of Jobs but the hardware has declined horribly.