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#1 2008-07-14 11:28 am
- ShnickyShnack
- Commander of Insurgent Cell "Dreamboat"

- From: Amidst a superiority complex
- Registered: 2001-05-25
- Posts: 40871
Uncle Sugar bailing out ailing companies - pro or con?
Federal government propping up failing firms hit by mortgage apocalypse
To those prone to blame lax regulation, the mortgage fiasco was the inevitable result of a quarter-century in which U.S. policy makers prayed at the altar of market fundamentalism. The officials who could have stepped in and restored order stayed out in the belief that prosperity is maximized when entrepreneurs are allowed to succeed and fail on their own.
Some more stories:
Treasury Secretary seeks authority to prop up Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae
Paulson proposed that Congress enact legislation giving the Treasury temporary authority to buy equity ``if needed'' in the firms, and to increase their lines of credit with the department from $2.25 billion each. The temporary authority may be for 18 months, a Treasury official told reporters on a conference call on condition of anonymity.
President George W. Bush, in a statement, said ``it is crucial that Congress quickly works to enact this legislation.''
Senator Charles Schumer, a Democrat from New York who chairs the Joint Economic Committee of Congress, praised Paulson's plan, saying it ``is surgical and carefully thought out and will maximize confidence in Fannie and Freddie while minimizing potential costs to U.S. taxpayers.''
But ... investor calls Fannie/Freddie rescue plan a "disaster," says they're "basically insolvent."
``I don't know where these guys get the audacity to take our money, taxpayer money, and buy stock in Fannie Mae,'' Rogers, 65, said in an interview from Singapore. ``So we're going to bail out everybody else in the world. And it ruins the Federal Reserve's balance sheet and it makes the dollar more vulnerable and it increases inflation.''
The chairman of Rogers Holdings, who in April 2006 correctly predicted oil would reach $100 a barrel and gold $1,000 an ounce, also said the commodities bull market has a ``long way to go'' and advised buying agricultural commodities.
``These companies were going to go bankrupt if they hadn't stepped in to do something, and they should've gone bankrupt with all of the mistakes they've made,'' Rogers said. ``What's going to happen when you Band-Aid and put some Band-Aids on it for another year or two or three? What's going to happen three years from now when the situation's much, much, much worse?''
Now first of all, there's the question of how much these government actions are actually helping the situation, or whether it's just a question of buying time. Then there's the question of how much the government is to blame for what's going on.
But it all really boils down to one question: how much should the government be intervening in the market? Either to prevent crises or to fix them?
Is the present crisis really just a failure of government policy? And if it is, why should those same people be trusted to fix what's wrong? And at the same time, if this is all happening independently of government action, what good can come of federal intervention now?
So should big companies be allowed to implode because of their own incompetence, or should the government step in to rescue them?
"If you would like a serious response, please ask serious, non loaded/leading questions" -- Steyr
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#2 2008-07-14 11:34 am
- Tallgeese
- Arugula-eating Elitist

- From: Fake America
- Registered: 2000-10-17
- Posts: 30882
Re: Uncle Sugar bailing out ailing companies - pro or con?
I don't know... From a practical standpoint you can find examples of the government bailing out companies and good things resulting and you can find examples of the government bailing out companies and bad things resulting. To me it seems like it should be a case-by-case thing: will the economy benefit from the bailout, will the company get back on its feet and stop the self-destructive behavior, and will the taxpayers see a ROI?
He can even take his son with him into the shower, where the boy cannot help but notice that Dad has a penis
- Dr. James Dobson, on "preventing" homosexuality
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#3 2008-07-14 11:36 am
- Ribtorus
- Member

- Registered: 2002-07-11
- Posts: 13344
Re: Uncle Sugar bailing out ailing companies - pro or con?
Buy time until real creditors/buyers can be found. Maybe convince the Nowegians or Singaporeans or Emiratis that they should be the ones to prop up U.S. public and private credit institutions.
when surrounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
and the women come out to cut up what remains,
just roll to your rifle and blow out your brains,
and go to your god like a soldier...
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#4 2008-07-14 12:09 pm
- user
- Your plastic pal who's fun to be with

- From: I'm not getting you down, am I
- Registered: 2001-10-15
- Posts: 14727
Re: Uncle Sugar bailing out ailing companies - pro or con?
It's like what my dad said to me last weekend: "I've already lived through one Great Depression, I don't want to live through another one." I'll wax less philosophical about whether the government SHOULD intervene as long as it DOES work, because I've heard enough stories from him about how awful that was.
Aw, he's no fun, he fell right over.
Unless you become as little children, there's no way you will believe this crap.
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#5 2008-07-14 2:51 pm
- bedstuy
- Archimandrite, Eastern Elite

- From: King Cole Bar, St. Regis Hotel
- Registered: 2003-09-20
- Posts: 12412
Re: Uncle Sugar bailing out ailing companies - pro or con?
Capitalism is bestest...
...until the state is needed that is.
I've abandoned free-market principles to save the free-market system" - George W. Bush, 12.16.08
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#6 2008-07-14 2:56 pm
- JakeTheTall
- Cargo Cultist

- From: In Permanent Opposition
- Registered: 2003-03-13
- Posts: 8068
Re: Uncle Sugar bailing out ailing companies - pro or con?
I haven't looked into the issue in depth, but I would think that outright nationalization is the "best" choice. Otherwise its government taking on risk while private parties get any profits that might be realized.
Also fining the executives / boards of the failed companies would make the populists happier.
“I don’t see (subprime mortgage market troubles) imposing a serious problem. I think it’s going to be largely contained” -- U.S. Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson, April 2007
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#7 2008-07-14 3:07 pm
- bedstuy
- Archimandrite, Eastern Elite

- From: King Cole Bar, St. Regis Hotel
- Registered: 2003-09-20
- Posts: 12412
Re: Uncle Sugar bailing out ailing companies - pro or con?
Nationalization and corporate responsibility? Why do you hate America?
I've abandoned free-market principles to save the free-market system" - George W. Bush, 12.16.08
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#8 2008-07-14 3:15 pm
- Farmerkev
- Official Dementor
- Moderator
- Registered: 2003-01-03
- Posts: 16835
Re: Uncle Sugar bailing out ailing companies - pro or con?
In general I'm opposed with some limited exceptions
Never argue with an idiot.
They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.
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#9 2008-07-14 5:20 pm
Re: Uncle Sugar bailing out ailing companies - pro or con?
As long as it keeps some rich #$&^#$*(&% from ever knowing what its like to be poor...
...having nothing in them of the feelings or principles of '76, now look to a single and splendid government of an aristocracy, founded on banking institutions and moneyed incorporations under the guise and cloak of their favored branches of manufactures, commerce and navigation, riding and ruling over the plundered ploughman and beggared yeomanry. -- TJ
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#10 2008-07-14 6:35 pm
- agedgruel
- insert clever phrase here

- From: Great Plains, U.S.A.
- Registered: 2004-06-05
- Posts: 775
Re: Uncle Sugar bailing out ailing companies - pro or con?
Perhaps if the industries in question were more regulated, bailouts wouldn't be necessary?
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#11 2008-07-14 6:37 pm
- Ribtorus
- Member

- Registered: 2002-07-11
- Posts: 13344
Re: Uncle Sugar bailing out ailing companies - pro or con?
If they don't get bailed out, perhaps regulatios won't be necessary.
when surrounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
and the women come out to cut up what remains,
just roll to your rifle and blow out your brains,
and go to your god like a soldier...
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#12 2008-07-14 10:19 pm
- ShnickyShnack
- Commander of Insurgent Cell "Dreamboat"

- From: Amidst a superiority complex
- Registered: 2001-05-25
- Posts: 40871
Re: Uncle Sugar bailing out ailing companies - pro or con?
"We have seen a 'too big, too important to fail' instance," said William Gross, the chief investment officer of the bond fund Pimco. "The market wonders: which institution is too small to bail out? Where is the dividing line? They seem to have picked on the regional banks as potential candidates to be the ones too small to bail out."
Banking analysts put out reports warning against the sector. Goldman Sachs said regional banks may cut their dividends to restore capital — pushing down shares of banks like Zions Bancorporation and First Horizon National. And Lehman Brothers said that Washington Mutual, the nation's largest savings and loan, might end up with a whopping $26 billion in cumulative losses.
Which then begs the question: once you start bailing these guys out, where do you draw the line between who gets helped and who doesn't?
"If you would like a serious response, please ask serious, non loaded/leading questions" -- Steyr
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#13 2008-07-14 10:23 pm
- Tallgeese
- Arugula-eating Elitist

- From: Fake America
- Registered: 2000-10-17
- Posts: 30882
Re: Uncle Sugar bailing out ailing companies - pro or con?
The line is where the cost of the bailout is higher than the cost of failure.
Let's look at an example: In the late 70s/early 80s, Lee Iaccoca persuaded Congress to back a Chrysler bailout. Soon after, they invented the minivan and the K-car, both were runaway successes. Chrysler paid back the loan in full in less than half the time expected and the company and all its jobs and innovations and contributions to the economy was able to continue for a couple decades longer. The gov bailed them out and everyone benefitted.
He can even take his son with him into the shower, where the boy cannot help but notice that Dad has a penis
- Dr. James Dobson, on "preventing" homosexuality
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#14 2008-07-15 7:58 am
- bratboy
- attorney-at-law
- Royal Wombat

- From: Austin, Texas
- Registered: 2003-01-19
- Posts: 30850
Re: Uncle Sugar bailing out ailing companies - pro or con?
Plus they donate a lot of money to political campaigns.
"One thing we've learned is there's a difference between being disappointed and having madmen in authority."
--Paul Krugman
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#15 2008-07-15 9:58 am
- ShnickyShnack
- Commander of Insurgent Cell "Dreamboat"

- From: Amidst a superiority complex
- Registered: 2001-05-25
- Posts: 40871
Re: Uncle Sugar bailing out ailing companies - pro or con?
"If you would like a serious response, please ask serious, non loaded/leading questions" -- Steyr
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#16 2008-07-15 6:29 pm
Re: Uncle Sugar bailing out ailing companies - pro or con?
How about this: Shore up the companies whose CEOS all voluntarily resign.
...having nothing in them of the feelings or principles of '76, now look to a single and splendid government of an aristocracy, founded on banking institutions and moneyed incorporations under the guise and cloak of their favored branches of manufactures, commerce and navigation, riding and ruling over the plundered ploughman and beggared yeomanry. -- TJ
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#17 2008-07-15 6:57 pm
Re: Uncle Sugar bailing out ailing companies - pro or con?
Without insanely high severance packages
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#18 2008-07-15 7:02 pm
Re: Uncle Sugar bailing out ailing companies - pro or con?
ScifiterX wrote:
Without insanely high severance packages
Correction: with NO severance packages.
The company's not asking you to leave, the US is.
...having nothing in them of the feelings or principles of '76, now look to a single and splendid government of an aristocracy, founded on banking institutions and moneyed incorporations under the guise and cloak of their favored branches of manufactures, commerce and navigation, riding and ruling over the plundered ploughman and beggared yeomanry. -- TJ
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#19 2008-07-16 3:00 am
- Proost
- Member
- From: chair
- Registered: 2002-12-08
- Posts: 1619
Re: Uncle Sugar bailing out ailing companies - pro or con?
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#20 2008-07-16 4:10 am
Re: Uncle Sugar bailing out ailing companies - pro or con?
Metacell wrote:
ScifiterX wrote:
Without insanely high severance packages
Correction: with NO severance packages.
The company's not asking you to leave, the US is.
What's the point of being an incompetent CEO if you can't get a good severance package?
I think the obvious question everyone has is who takes loaded weapons into a Toys R Us? -- Jim Ferguson
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#21 2008-07-16 8:19 am
Re: Uncle Sugar bailing out ailing companies - pro or con?
Would castration qualify as a good serverance package?
How can a person still have any hopes
who is addicted to what's superficial,
who grubs with greedy hand for treasures
and then is happy to discover earthworms! - Goethe
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#22 2008-07-16 9:29 am
- radarman
- Member
- Registered: 2005-02-28
- Posts: 2423
Re: Uncle Sugar bailing out ailing companies - pro or con?
The correct answer is to give a short speech about how it is imperative to not create companies that are "too big to fail", because they then start acting that way. Explain how being irresponsible should not be a reason for a bailout.
At the end, mention that the US isn't going to do squat for Fannie or Freddie, and let them go into bankruptcy like any other business that took on WAY too much risk. Sell 'em off piecewise to any and all comers, and start looking at CRIMINAL prosecutions for some of the former employees.
Anything else is a waste of time and taxpayer money.
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#23 2008-07-16 1:04 pm
- Proost
- Member
- From: chair
- Registered: 2002-12-08
- Posts: 1619
Re: Uncle Sugar bailing out ailing companies - pro or con?
radarman wrote:
The correct answer is to give a short speech about how it is imperative to not create companies that are "too big to fail", because they then start acting that way. Explain how being irresponsible should not be a reason for a bailout.
At the end, mention that the US isn't going to do squat for Fannie or Freddie, and let them go into bankruptcy like any other business that took on WAY too much risk. Sell 'em off piecewise to any and all comers, and start looking at CRIMINAL prosecutions for some of the former employees.
Anything else is a waste of time and taxpayer money.
Just blaim the immigrants for any (big) failure! Truth is that big company's got so much power and are so important, everything in the end is about that, not about the (working) people.
Make the elite holy and most important (those with most wealth/power), then suffer in the end.
Last edited by Proost (2008-07-16 1:05 pm)
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#24 2008-07-19 5:03 pm
- Hank Rearden
- Watch your step

- From: Republic of Western Canada
- Registered: 2001-04-18
- Posts: 6428
- Website
Re: Uncle Sugar bailing out ailing companies - pro or con?
The Fannie and Freddie bailout is simply going to delay the inevitable a tiny, tiny bit. Just like the .com bubble burst didn't mean the end of computers, the real estate bubble burst won't mean the end of real estate. It will simply mean that people will once again spend in proportion to the value that they are receiving - not just for hype, hype, hype!
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#25 2008-07-19 7:26 pm
- [MA] Flying_Meat
- Member
- From: Frisco?
- Registered: 2001-03-31
- Posts: 8363
Re: Uncle Sugar bailing out ailing companies - pro or con?
wait. the dollar isn't based on the hype standard?
...and watch out for the flying meat!
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