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#1 2008-07-14 11:28 am

ShnickyShnack
Commander of Insurgent Cell "Dreamboat"
From: Amidst a superiority complex
Registered: 2001-05-25
Posts: 40180

Uncle Sugar bailing out ailing companies - pro or con?

Federal government propping up failing firms hit by mortgage apocalypse

To those prone to blame lax regulation, the mortgage fiasco was the inevitable result of a quarter-century in which U.S. policy makers prayed at the altar of market fundamentalism. The officials who could have stepped in and restored order stayed out in the belief that prosperity is maximized when entrepreneurs are allowed to succeed and fail on their own.

Some more stories:

Treasury Secretary seeks authority to prop up Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae

Paulson proposed that Congress enact legislation giving the Treasury temporary authority to buy equity ``if needed'' in the firms, and to increase their lines of credit with the department from $2.25 billion each. The temporary authority may be for 18 months, a Treasury official told reporters on a conference call on condition of anonymity.

President George W. Bush, in a statement, said ``it is crucial that Congress quickly works to enact this legislation.''

Senator Charles Schumer, a Democrat from New York who chairs the Joint Economic Committee of Congress, praised Paulson's plan, saying it ``is surgical and carefully thought out and will maximize confidence in Fannie and Freddie while minimizing potential costs to U.S. taxpayers.''

But ... investor calls Fannie/Freddie rescue plan a "disaster," says they're "basically insolvent."

``I don't know where these guys get the audacity to take our money, taxpayer money, and buy stock in Fannie Mae,'' Rogers, 65, said in an interview from Singapore. ``So we're going to bail out everybody else in the world. And it ruins the Federal Reserve's balance sheet and it makes the dollar more vulnerable and it increases inflation.''

The chairman of Rogers Holdings, who in April 2006 correctly predicted oil would reach $100 a barrel and gold $1,000 an ounce, also said the commodities bull market has a ``long way to go'' and advised buying agricultural commodities.

``These companies were going to go bankrupt if they hadn't stepped in to do something, and they should've gone bankrupt with all of the mistakes they've made,'' Rogers said. ``What's going to happen when you Band-Aid and put some Band-Aids on it for another year or two or three? What's going to happen three years from now when the situation's much, much, much worse?''

Now first of all, there's the question of how much these government actions are actually helping the situation, or whether it's just a question of buying time. Then there's the question of how much the government is to blame for what's going on.

But it all really boils down to one question: how much should the government be intervening in the market? Either to prevent crises or to fix them?

Is the present crisis really just a failure of government policy? And if it is, why should those same people be trusted to fix what's wrong? And at the same time, if this is all happening independently of government action, what good can come of federal intervention now?

So should big companies be allowed to implode because of their own incompetence, or should the government step in to rescue them?


"Those of us who have looked to the self-interest of lending institutions to protect shareholders’ equity, myself especially, are in a state of shocked disbelief." -- Alan Greenspan

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#2 2008-07-14 11:34 am

Tallgeese
Arugula-eating Elitist
From: Fake America
Registered: 2000-10-17
Posts: 30563

Re: Uncle Sugar bailing out ailing companies - pro or con?

I don't know... From a practical standpoint you can find examples of the government bailing out companies and good things resulting and you can find examples of the government bailing out companies and bad things resulting. To me it seems like it should be a case-by-case thing: will the economy benefit from the bailout, will the  company get back on its feet and stop the self-destructive behavior, and will the taxpayers see a ROI?


QUESTION: What did Iraqi have to do with that?
BUSH: What did Iraq have to do with what?
QUESTION: The attacks upon the World Trade Center.
BUSH: Nothing

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#3 2008-07-14 11:36 am

Ribtorus
Member
Registered: 2002-07-11
Posts: 13245

Re: Uncle Sugar bailing out ailing companies - pro or con?

Buy time until real creditors/buyers can be found. Maybe convince the Nowegians or Singaporeans or Emiratis that they should be the ones to prop up U.S. public and private credit institutions.


It's not a movie.

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#4 2008-07-14 12:09 pm

user
Your plastic pal who's fun to be with
From: I'm not getting you down, am I
Registered: 2001-10-15
Posts: 14459

Re: Uncle Sugar bailing out ailing companies - pro or con?

It's like what my dad said to me last weekend: "I've already lived through one Great Depression, I don't want to live through another one." I'll wax less philosophical about whether the government SHOULD intervene as long as it DOES work, because I've heard enough stories from him about how awful that was.


Aw, he's no fun, he fell right over.

Unless you become as little children, there's no way you will believe this crap.

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#5 2008-07-14 2:51 pm

bedstuy
Archimandrite, Eastern Elite
From: King Cole Bar, St. Regis Hotel
Registered: 2003-09-20
Posts: 12255

Re: Uncle Sugar bailing out ailing companies - pro or con?

Capitalism is bestest...

...until the state is needed that is.

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#6 2008-07-14 2:56 pm

JakeTheTall
Cargo Cultist
From: In Permanent Opposition
Registered: 2003-03-13
Posts: 7837

Re: Uncle Sugar bailing out ailing companies - pro or con?

I haven't looked into the issue in depth, but I would think that outright nationalization is the "best" choice.  Otherwise its government taking on risk while private parties get any profits that might be realized.

Also fining the executives / boards of the failed companies would make the populists happier.


“I don’t see (subprime mortgage market troubles) imposing a serious problem. I think it’s going to be largely contained”  -- U.S. Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson, April 2007

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#7 2008-07-14 3:07 pm

bedstuy
Archimandrite, Eastern Elite
From: King Cole Bar, St. Regis Hotel
Registered: 2003-09-20
Posts: 12255

Re: Uncle Sugar bailing out ailing companies - pro or con?

Nationalization and corporate responsibility?  Why do you hate America?

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#8 2008-07-14 3:15 pm

Farmerkev
Official Dementor
Moderator
Registered: 2003-01-03
Posts: 16592

Re: Uncle Sugar bailing out ailing companies - pro or con?

In general I'm opposed with some limited exceptions


Minithink isn't a "to the death" cage match.

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#9 2008-07-14 5:20 pm

Metacell
lower class snob
From: The space between the spaces
Registered: 2005-03-19
Posts: 4821
Website

Re: Uncle Sugar bailing out ailing companies - pro or con?

As long as it keeps some rich #$&^#$*(&% from ever knowing what its like to be poor...


...having nothing in them of the feelings or principles of '76, now look to a single and splendid government of an aristocracy, founded on banking institutions and moneyed incorporations under the guise and cloak of their favored branches of manufactures, commerce and navigation, riding and ruling over the plundered ploughman and beggared yeomanry. -- TJ

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#10 2008-07-14 6:35 pm

agedgruel
insert clever phrase here
From: Great Plains, U.S.A.
Registered: 2004-06-05
Posts: 775

Re: Uncle Sugar bailing out ailing companies - pro or con?

Perhaps if the industries in question were more regulated, bailouts wouldn't be necessary?

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#11 2008-07-14 6:37 pm

Ribtorus
Member
Registered: 2002-07-11
Posts: 13245

Re: Uncle Sugar bailing out ailing companies - pro or con?

If they don't get bailed out, perhaps regulatios won't be necessary.


It's not a movie.

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#12 2008-07-14 10:19 pm

ShnickyShnack
Commander of Insurgent Cell "Dreamboat"
From: Amidst a superiority complex
Registered: 2001-05-25
Posts: 40180

Re: Uncle Sugar bailing out ailing companies - pro or con?

Investors wonder: who's next?

"We have seen a 'too big, too important to fail' instance," said William Gross, the chief investment officer of the bond fund Pimco. "The market wonders: which institution is too small to bail out? Where is the dividing line? They seem to have picked on the regional banks as potential candidates to be the ones too small to bail out."

Banking analysts put out reports warning against the sector. Goldman Sachs said regional banks may cut their dividends to restore capital — pushing down shares of banks like Zions Bancorporation and First Horizon National. And Lehman Brothers said that Washington Mutual, the nation's largest savings and loan, might end up with a whopping $26 billion in cumulative losses.

Which then begs the question: once you start bailing these guys out, where do you draw the line between who gets helped and who doesn't?


"Those of us who have looked to the self-interest of lending institutions to protect shareholders’ equity, myself especially, are in a state of shocked disbelief." -- Alan Greenspan

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#13 2008-07-14 10:23 pm

Tallgeese
Arugula-eating Elitist
From: Fake America
Registered: 2000-10-17
Posts: 30563

Re: Uncle Sugar bailing out ailing companies - pro or con?

The line is where the cost of the bailout is higher than the cost of failure.
Let's look at an example: In the late 70s/early 80s, Lee Iaccoca persuaded Congress to back a Chrysler bailout. Soon after, they invented the minivan and the K-car, both were runaway successes. Chrysler paid back the loan in full in less than half the time expected and the company and all its jobs and innovations and contributions to the economy was able to continue for a couple decades longer. The gov bailed them out and everyone benefitted.


QUESTION: What did Iraqi have to do with that?
BUSH: What did Iraq have to do with what?
QUESTION: The attacks upon the World Trade Center.
BUSH: Nothing

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#14 2008-07-15 7:58 am

bratboy
attorney-at-law
Royal Wombat
From: Austin, Texas
Registered: 2003-01-19
Posts: 30496

Re: Uncle Sugar bailing out ailing companies - pro or con?

Plus they donate a lot of money to political campaigns.


"One thing we've learned is there's a difference between being disappointed and having madmen in authority."

                                                                   --Paul Krugman

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#15 2008-07-15 9:58 am

ShnickyShnack
Commander of Insurgent Cell "Dreamboat"
From: Amidst a superiority complex
Registered: 2001-05-25
Posts: 40180

Re: Uncle Sugar bailing out ailing companies - pro or con?


"Those of us who have looked to the self-interest of lending institutions to protect shareholders’ equity, myself especially, are in a state of shocked disbelief." -- Alan Greenspan

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#16 2008-07-15 6:29 pm

Metacell
lower class snob
From: The space between the spaces
Registered: 2005-03-19
Posts: 4821
Website

Re: Uncle Sugar bailing out ailing companies - pro or con?

How about this:  Shore up the companies whose CEOS all voluntarily resign.


...having nothing in them of the feelings or principles of '76, now look to a single and splendid government of an aristocracy, founded on banking institutions and moneyed incorporations under the guise and cloak of their favored branches of manufactures, commerce and navigation, riding and ruling over the plundered ploughman and beggared yeomanry. -- TJ

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#17 2008-07-15 6:57 pm

ScifiterX
エロ仙人
Moderator
From: NW Palm Bay, Florida
Registered: 2000-02-10
Posts: 15845
Website

Re: Uncle Sugar bailing out ailing companies - pro or con?

Without insanely high severance packages

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#18 2008-07-15 7:02 pm

Metacell
lower class snob
From: The space between the spaces
Registered: 2005-03-19
Posts: 4821
Website

Re: Uncle Sugar bailing out ailing companies - pro or con?

ScifiterX wrote:

Without insanely high severance packages

Correction: with NO severance packages.

The company's not asking you to leave, the US is.


...having nothing in them of the feelings or principles of '76, now look to a single and splendid government of an aristocracy, founded on banking institutions and moneyed incorporations under the guise and cloak of their favored branches of manufactures, commerce and navigation, riding and ruling over the plundered ploughman and beggared yeomanry. -- TJ

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#19 2008-07-16 3:00 am

Proost
Member
From: chair
Registered: 2002-12-08
Posts: 1597

Re: Uncle Sugar bailing out ailing companies - pro or con?

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#20 2008-07-16 4:10 am

resedit
Chicken Little
Royal Wombat
From: /dev/null
Registered: 1999-11-01
Posts: 44513
Website

Re: Uncle Sugar bailing out ailing companies - pro or con?

Metacell wrote:

ScifiterX wrote:

Without insanely high severance packages

Correction: with NO severance packages.

The company's not asking you to leave, the US is.

What's the point of being an incompetent CEO if you can't get a good severance package?


The real reason that we can’t have the Ten Commandments posted in a courthouse is this: You cannot post “Thou Shalt Not Steal,” “Thou Shalt Not Commit Adultery,” and “Thou Shall Not Lie” in a building full of lawyers, judges and politicians. It creates a hostile work environment. -- George Carlin (I think)

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#21 2008-07-16 8:19 am

StaticAge
Fearless Vampire Killer
From: Washington DC
Registered: 2002-08-28
Posts: 6381
Website

Re: Uncle Sugar bailing out ailing companies - pro or con?

Would castration qualify as a good serverance package?


How can a person still have any hopes
who is addicted to what's superficial,
who grubs with greedy hand for treasures
and then is happy to discover earthworms! - Goethe

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#22 2008-07-16 9:29 am

radarman
Member
Registered: 2005-02-28
Posts: 2222

Re: Uncle Sugar bailing out ailing companies - pro or con?

The correct answer is to give a short speech about how it is imperative to not create companies that are "too big to fail", because they then start acting that way. Explain how being irresponsible should not be a reason for a bailout.

At the end, mention that the US isn't going to do squat for Fannie or Freddie, and let them go into bankruptcy like any other business that took on WAY too much risk. Sell 'em off piecewise to any and all comers, and start looking at CRIMINAL prosecutions for some of the former employees.

Anything else is a waste of time and taxpayer money.

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#23 2008-07-16 1:04 pm

Proost
Member
From: chair
Registered: 2002-12-08
Posts: 1597

Re: Uncle Sugar bailing out ailing companies - pro or con?

radarman wrote:

The correct answer is to give a short speech about how it is imperative to not create companies that are "too big to fail", because they then start acting that way. Explain how being irresponsible should not be a reason for a bailout.

At the end, mention that the US isn't going to do squat for Fannie or Freddie, and let them go into bankruptcy like any other business that took on WAY too much risk. Sell 'em off piecewise to any and all comers, and start looking at CRIMINAL prosecutions for some of the former employees.

Anything else is a waste of time and taxpayer money.

Just blaim the immigrants for any (big) failure! Truth is that big company's got so much power and are so important, everything in the end is about that, not about the (working) people.
Make the elite holy and most important (those with most wealth/power), then suffer in the end.

Last edited by Proost (2008-07-16 1:05 pm)

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#24 2008-07-19 5:03 pm

Hank Rearden
Watch your step
From: Republic of Western Canada
Registered: 2001-04-18
Posts: 6015
Website

Re: Uncle Sugar bailing out ailing companies - pro or con?

The Fannie and Freddie bailout is simply going to delay the inevitable a tiny, tiny bit. Just like the .com bubble burst didn't mean the end of computers, the real estate bubble burst won't mean the end of real estate. It will simply mean that people will once again spend in proportion to the value that they are receiving - not just for hype, hype, hype!


Remember, remember the fifth of November.

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#25 2008-07-19 7:26 pm

[MA] Flying_Meat
Member
From: Frisco?
Registered: 2001-03-31
Posts: 8350

Re: Uncle Sugar bailing out ailing companies - pro or con?

wait. the dollar isn't based on the hype standard?


...and watch out for the flying meat!

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