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Some1 wrote:

jkahless wrote:

Some1 wrote:

No, but there is somethin wrong with placing the blame squarely on the side that isn't taking cover next to children.

Who over here is doing that?  Do you see anyone proclaiming Hamas as pure and innocent?

So then tell me, what should Israeli troops do when rockets or gunfire or whathaveyou is coming from a densely populated area. And tell why it is that everyone here demonizes Israel as if they're willfully running around murdering as many Palestinian civilians as possible every time they mention the death-count, without so much of a breath about how Hamas spent the past 6 months digging in preparing to defend themselves, at the expense of innocent Palestinians, from an Israeli offensive provoked by their rocket fire.

I criticize Israel because they're supposed to be the good guys.  And we could talk a little about proportionality.  Near as I can tell, it's roughly 100 dead civilian Palestinians for each dead civilian Israeli.  And I can tell you that unless Israel wipes Gaza from the map, there is as little chance of them solving this conflict through violence as there is Hamas solving this through violence.

resedit wrote:

jkahless wrote:

Some1 wrote:

No, but there is somethin wrong with placing the blame squarely on the side that isn't taking cover next to children.

Who over here is doing that?  Do you see anyone proclaiming Hamas as pure and innocent?

I don't see that - but I do see a lot of extreme criticism of Israel and excuses being made for Hamas.
Not patent proclamation of them being "pure and innocent" but certainly not even close to balanced.

Again there is that little thing of the 100:1 civilian death rate, and the fact that Israel is supposed to be the good guy.  I demand more of Israel because it's supposed to have the moral high ground, and has the billions of dollars in foreign aid to help it stay there.  But it doesn't.  Instead it's on an immoral self destructive vicious cycle, without showing any kind of real dedicated sincerity in trying to change things in any way other than blowing smurf up.

resedit wrote:

Two very simple questions -

1) What did Hamas hope to gain by firing thousands of rockets into Israel?

2) Has firing rockets into Israel ever resulting in that kind of gain?

What did Israel hope to gain by blockading Gaza?  Did it work?

We can play this game all day.

bratboy wrote:

resedit wrote:

I don't see that - but I do see a lot of extreme criticism of Israel and excuses being made for Hamas.
Not patent proclamation of them being "pure and innocent" but certainly not even close to balanced.

Excuses being made for Hamas?  Where?

That's a rich accusation coming from someone who found it absolutely impossible to criticize Israel whatsoever in the last 30 page thread on the subject--all the while repeatedly suggesting that the Palestinian civilian population (40+ percent children) deserved what they were getting.

How about if I say it? When attacking Israel no one ever brings up the fact that Hamas is taking shelter behind the civilian population.

And many people are essentially defending Hamas, saying that they wouldn't be launching rockets if Israel had allowed open traffic of goods through the border. If anything they'd be lobbing more rockets with longer ranges at Israel if Israel had allowed free traffic through the Gaza border.

The only way Palestinians can thrive is with open traffic and trade with Israel, but that's an impossibility, seeing as how radicals in the Palestinian population will send suicide bombers to attack Israel if open border traffic of goods and people is allowed.

Some1 wrote:

bratboy wrote:

resedit wrote:

I don't see that - but I do see a lot of extreme criticism of Israel and excuses being made for Hamas.
Not patent proclamation of them being "pure and innocent" but certainly not even close to balanced.

Excuses being made for Hamas?  Where?

That's a rich accusation coming from someone who found it absolutely impossible to criticize Israel whatsoever in the last 30 page thread on the subject--all the while repeatedly suggesting that the Palestinian civilian population (40+ percent children) deserved what they were getting.

How about if I say it? When attacking Israel no one ever brings up the fact that Hamas is taking shelter behind the civilian population.

And many people are essentially defending Hamas, saying that they wouldn't be launching rockets if Israel had allowed open traffic of goods through the border. If anything they'd be lobbing more rockets with longer ranges at Israel if Israel had allowed free traffic through the Gaza border.

The only way Palestinians can thrive is with open traffic and trade with Israel, but that's an impossibility, seeing as how radicals in the Palestinian population will send suicide bombers to attack Israel if open border traffic of goods and people is allowed.

I very much question the idea of "taking shelter behind civilians." First of all, Gaza is one of the most densely populated places on earth. Even if Hamas were to do its utmost to avoid civilian involvement, they'd be screwed; there's nowhere for civilians to hide.

Secondly, the phenomenon of war since 1939 is such that civilians get involved in war. That's just the way it is. It's a fact.

I don't buy this Israel-is-innocent view of killing kids in Gaza. Killing kids is killing kids. Even if it's all because of Hamas, they're playing right into the hands of the terrorists. How smart is that? Never fight the enemy on his terms. Hamas wants to win the P.R. war, and they're doing it. Damn, the Israelis are making it so easy.

Despite it all, I might be willing to accept these tragedies if they were to result in security and peace. But that's not the case. This will not bring Israel security. It will not bring Israel peace. Quite the contrary, it will simply bring more war.

As I've said countless times on this subject, Israel is dooming itself by playing the game according to rules set by Hamas. The focus needs to be not on war but peace. I want Israel to survive. I don't want it to become a footnote in history. But that's what will happen if they don't strike a deal with their neighbours.

The existing formula of "you kill one of our people we kill ten of yours" just isn't working. After decades of this, Israel is no more secure. And in fact its image is dropping like a brick.

Not helped by incidents like this.

Israel shelled the United Nations headquarters in the Gaza Strip on Thursday, engulfing the compound and a warehouse in fire and destroying thousands of pounds of food and humanitarian supplies intended for Palestinian refugees.

A senior Israeli military officer said troops opened fire after militants inside the compound shot anti-tank weapons and machine guns. The officer spoke on condition of anonymity pending a formal army announcement later in the day.

Ging, who was in the compound at the time, dismissed the Israeli account as "nonsense."

Meanwhile:

Israel says it will press ahead until Hamas halts the rocket fire and stops smuggling weapons into Gaza from neighboring Egypt.

Israeli police said 20 rockets hit southern Israel on Thursday, injuring 10 people. Five of the wounded were in a car that was struck in the city of Beersheba.

It's insane. Hopeless war. Pointless war. Very damaging war.

I'm not sure Israel is aware that during a "ceasefire" they're not supposed to use their weapons.

bratboy wrote:

resedit wrote:

Two very simple questions -

1) What did Hamas hope to gain by firing thousands of rockets into Israel?

2) Has firing rockets into Israel ever resulting in that kind of gain?

What did Israel hope to gain by blockading Gaza?  Did it work?

We can play this game all day.

You mean the game where you avoid answering simple questions?

As far as the blockade - how many succesful suicide bombers were there from Gaza strip after the blockade?
Zero.
Seems fairly successful to me.

Where did the supplies come in to build their rockets?

Tunnels into Egypt. Unfortunately Egypt failed to detect and block those.

Last edited by resedit (2009-01-15 4:44 pm)

bratboy wrote:

resedit wrote:

You mean the game where you avoid answering simple questions?

Res...of anyone who posts here, you are by far the very WORST when it comes to avoiding questions or uncomfortable facts. 

Why should I care what Hamas hoped to accomplish?  I don't defend Hamas nor support them.  I'm guessing they hoped to draw Israel into conflict.  Mission accomplished?

As far as the blockade - how many succesful suicide bombers were there from Gaza strip after the blockade?
Zero.
Seems fairly successful to me.

The fact that you've wholeheartedly endorsed Israel's blockade of Gaza--without a single comment otherwise--and despite the mountains of evidence presented to you about the rational behind it and its effect upon the civilian population--that really says a whole lot about you.  And not good.

You are making assumptions.
I don't buy the propaganda that Israel was not allowing food and medical aid in - supported by the fact that an Arab news source specifically stated that they were.

resedit wrote:

bratboy wrote:

resedit wrote:

You mean the game where you avoid answering simple questions?

Res...of anyone who posts here, you are by far the very WORST when it comes to avoiding questions or uncomfortable facts. 

Why should I care what Hamas hoped to accomplish?  I don't defend Hamas nor support them.  I'm guessing they hoped to draw Israel into conflict.  Mission accomplished?

As far as the blockade - how many succesful suicide bombers were there from Gaza strip after the blockade?
Zero.
Seems fairly successful to me.

The fact that you've wholeheartedly endorsed Israel's blockade of Gaza--without a single comment otherwise--and despite the mountains of evidence presented to you about the rational behind it and its effect upon the civilian population--that really says a whole lot about you.  And not good.

You are making assumptions.
I don't buy the propaganda that Israel was not allowing food and medical aid in - supported by the fact that an Arab news source specifically stated that they were.

How's the quality of life been in Gaza since Israel withdrew?

Interesting article - translated from Arabic -

http://factsofisrael.com/blog/archives/000234.html

resedit wrote:

You are making assumptions.
I don't buy the propaganda that Israel was not allowing food and medical aid in - supported by the fact that an Arab news source specifically stated that they were.

Why do you ask the same questions repeatedly, without ever acknowledging the answers you've given?

Israel did, at times, completely shut off the border.  However, most of the time they allowed some aid shipments through.  I did not cite to a single source that disputed this.

What they did note, however, is that not nearly enough was let through.  A small amount was, but it was insufficient.  Hence, Israel claiming that it was putting the population "on a diet."  I offered quite detailed numbers explaining what Gaza needed, what shipments came through on a daily basis before, and what Israel has cut the shipments down to during the blockade. 

This has all been explained to you--more than once.  You really impressed yourself by finding a story from al-jazeera, as you've dropped that point OVER and OVER and OVER.  Each time, I explained to you why the simple fact that 'some aid' was allowed through is meaningless when the amount needed was so much more.  This is why numerous human rights and aid organizations--including several in Israel alone--have called the blockade immoral, illegal, and a war crime.

Over and over very specific facts were presented to you.  Each time, you completely ignored them.  Then, like a goldfish, you revert to your 'ALJAWSEEERAH!' line again.   Please explain to me why I should not be seriously questioning your ability to process new information in a discussion and adjust your message to address that information--because I'm at a loss, here.

Some1 wrote:

Do you ever post constructive arguments, or do you just spout sarcastic anti-Israeli rhetoric?

As opposed to your post, I guess.

Let me fill you in again:  You've missed countless numbers of very long and in-depth threads on this subject.  It's a bit silly for you to categorize his posting based on two pages.

Oh, and before your mind wanders too far--he's jewish.