Forums | MacLife
You are not logged in.
#1 2009-11-04 3:55 pm
- D'Eyncourt
- OMGDICTATOR
- Registered: 2001-12-27
- Posts: 8808
- Website
Pseudoscience kills in Iraq
Iraqi Army has spent millions of dollars in dowsing devices to detect bombs.
The device was among several which were previously tested by the US Army and found to be totally useless. In one particularly memorable test the device failed to detect the tons of munitions which were loaded in an Army truck next to the tester. From the article:
On Tuesday, a guard and a driver for The New York Times, both licensed to carry firearms, drove through nine police checkpoints that were using the device. None of the checkpoint guards detected the two AK-47 rifles and ammunition inside the vehicle.
During an interview on Tuesday, General Jabiri challenged a Times reporter to test the ADE 651, placing a grenade and a machine pistol in plain view in his office. Despite two attempts, the wand did not detect the weapons when used by the reporter but did so each time it was used by a policeman.
“You need more training,” the general said.
Last edited by D'Eyncourt (2009-11-04 3:55 pm)
BOYCOTT SONY
"I think the question now is not whether you went to Vietnam or whether you didn't, whether you fought in the war or fought against the war. I think the only question is whether we can find a president smart enough never to make a mistake like that again"--Molly Ivins, way back in 1992
Offline
#2 2009-11-04 4:48 pm
- Fracai
- Evacipate
- From: St. Elsewhere
- Registered: 2000-05-25
- Posts: 2837
Re: Pseudoscience kills in Iraq
DOWSING!
It is almost beyond belief that this kind of thing actually goes on.
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badas … g-edition/
And then there's the NCCAM that our own country (US) continues to fund.
Last edited by Fracai (2009-11-04 4:49 pm)
Offline
#3 2009-11-04 5:04 pm
- Fracai
- Evacipate
- From: St. Elsewhere
- Registered: 2000-05-25
- Posts: 2837
Re: Pseudoscience kills in Iraq
General Jabiri wrote:
I need more double blinded studies.
FTFY!
Offline
#4 2009-11-04 5:11 pm
- JakeTheTall
- Cargo Cultist
- From: In Permanent Opposition
- Registered: 2003-03-13
- Posts: 9624
Re: Pseudoscience kills in Iraq
Well, it adds a layer of confusion to the "just giving money to my cronies."
Jesus said to the servants, "Fill the jars with water"; so they filled them to the brim. Then he told them, "Now draw some out and take it to the master of the banquet." They did so, and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew.
Offline
#5 2009-11-04 8:27 pm
- dv
- Negusa Negest
- Moderator
- From: Minneapolis, MN
- Registered: 1999-08-30
- Posts: 18103
Re: Pseudoscience kills in Iraq
So... who sold it to them, and can they be sued?
"Now commences the process of cutting off the head, which generally takes from an hour to an hour and a half by an expert workman with a sharp blade." -Reuben Delano, Wanderings and Adventures
Offline
#6 2009-11-04 8:32 pm
Re: Pseudoscience kills in Iraq
dv wrote:
So... who sold it to them, and can they be sued?
In true tradition, they've packed up their baubles and bottles of salve and caravanned their way back across the desert.
There's what you love to do, and then there's what you get paid to do. Those two things are often different.
Offline
#7 2009-11-05 5:03 am
- D'Eyncourt
- OMGDICTATOR
- Registered: 2001-12-27
- Posts: 8808
- Website
Re: Pseudoscience kills in Iraq
Jokotai wrote:
dv wrote:
So... who sold it to them, and can they be sued?
In true tradition, they've packed up their baubles and bottles of salve and caravanned their way back across the desert.
It is a company with branches in the UK and Washington State, but first someone will have to convince that idiot general that the devices do not work. I suspect that the marketers may have used the Emperor's New Clothes gambit ("you must be at least this smart to be able to use our device") to discourage criticism.
BOYCOTT SONY
"I think the question now is not whether you went to Vietnam or whether you didn't, whether you fought in the war or fought against the war. I think the only question is whether we can find a president smart enough never to make a mistake like that again"--Molly Ivins, way back in 1992
Offline
#8 2009-11-05 5:53 am
- Ribtorus
- Member
- Registered: 2002-07-11
- Posts: 13758
Re: Pseudoscience kills in Iraq
It's cheap psychology, but there may be some basis in that. The rod is a placebo and the real effectiveness comes from training in what and where to look.
when surrounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
and the women come out to cut up what remains,
just roll to your rifle and blow out your brains,
and go to your god like a soldier...
Offline
#9 2009-11-05 6:25 am
- D'Eyncourt
- OMGDICTATOR
- Registered: 2001-12-27
- Posts: 8808
- Website
Re: Pseudoscience kills in Iraq
Ribtorus wrote:
It's cheap psychology, but there may be some basis in that. The rod is a placebo and the real effectiveness comes from training in what and where to look.
Except that isn't what is happening. The Iraqis are relying on this "tech" to work as advertised and find the "bad stuff." They are not bothering with actual checks, as witnessed by the driver and guard hired by the NY Times to drive through the checkpoints with their licensed weapons and ammo.
BOYCOTT SONY
"I think the question now is not whether you went to Vietnam or whether you didn't, whether you fought in the war or fought against the war. I think the only question is whether we can find a president smart enough never to make a mistake like that again"--Molly Ivins, way back in 1992
Offline
#10 2009-11-05 6:30 am
- Ribtorus
- Member
- Registered: 2002-07-11
- Posts: 13758
Re: Pseudoscience kills in Iraq
Oh yeah, well that truck was no actual threat so the system worked. Not a fail.
Last edited by Ribtorus (2009-11-05 6:30 am)
when surrounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
and the women come out to cut up what remains,
just roll to your rifle and blow out your brains,
and go to your god like a soldier...
Offline
#11 2009-11-05 7:32 am
- D'Eyncourt
- OMGDICTATOR
- Registered: 2001-12-27
- Posts: 8808
- Website
Re: Pseudoscience kills in Iraq
Ribtorus wrote:
Oh yeah, well that truck was no actual threat so the system worked. Not a fail.
Really? The dowsing device is able to determine intent as well?
How about the bombing in Baghdad on October 25th? From the original article:
The suicide bombers who managed to get two tons of explosives into downtown Baghdad on Oct. 25, killing 155 people and destroying three ministries, had to pass at least one checkpoint where the ADE 651 is typically deployed, judging from surveillance videos released by Baghdad’s provincial governor.
[bold added]
BOYCOTT SONY
"I think the question now is not whether you went to Vietnam or whether you didn't, whether you fought in the war or fought against the war. I think the only question is whether we can find a president smart enough never to make a mistake like that again"--Molly Ivins, way back in 1992
Offline
#12 2009-11-05 7:46 am
- D'Eyncourt
- OMGDICTATOR
- Registered: 2001-12-27
- Posts: 8808
- Website
Re: Pseudoscience kills in Iraq
I'll add that in the submission to the US Army there was no claim made by this company that this unpowered device was to be used as an aid to supplement actual bomb-screening. The claim was that it could alert the user of the presence of "bad" substances without clearly explaining how the device could differentiate such from chemically-similar but otherwise inert materials.
BOYCOTT SONY
"I think the question now is not whether you went to Vietnam or whether you didn't, whether you fought in the war or fought against the war. I think the only question is whether we can find a president smart enough never to make a mistake like that again"--Molly Ivins, way back in 1992
Offline
#13 2009-11-05 8:01 am
- Ribtorus
- Member
- Registered: 2002-07-11
- Posts: 13758
Re: Pseudoscience kills in Iraq
D'Eyncourt wrote:
Ribtorus wrote:
Oh yeah, well that truck was no actual threat so the system worked. Not a fail.
Really? The dowsing device is able to determine intent as well?
Apparently.
when surrounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
and the women come out to cut up what remains,
just roll to your rifle and blow out your brains,
and go to your god like a soldier...
Offline
#14 2009-11-05 11:05 am
- sturner
- Royal High Poobah
- Moderator
- From: Carrollton, TX USA
- Registered: 2000-01-31
- Posts: 13835
Re: Pseudoscience kills in Iraq
I haz dousing rod. Can I haz cheezburger now?
I'm not dead yet.
There are 3 types of people, those who can count and those who can't.
"There are few things graven in stone, excepting your date of death."
Offline
#15 2009-11-05 11:17 am
- mo' ron
- PS3 4 EVA
- From: NC, USA
- Registered: 2002-10-15
- Posts: 14257
Re: Pseudoscience kills in Iraq
How is the company that makes the things not out of business? How can they conscionably charge thousands of dollars for those things?
What is the difference between Vista and OSX?
- Microsoft employees are excited about OSX.
Offline
#16 2009-11-05 11:57 am
- Ribtorus
- Member
- Registered: 2002-07-11
- Posts: 13758
Re: Pseudoscience kills in Iraq
mo' ron wrote:
How is the company that makes the things not out of business? How can they conscionably charge thousands of dollars for those things?
Kickbacks.
when surrounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
and the women come out to cut up what remains,
just roll to your rifle and blow out your brains,
and go to your god like a soldier...
Offline
#17 2009-11-05 1:13 pm
- sturner
- Royal High Poobah
- Moderator
- From: Carrollton, TX USA
- Registered: 2000-01-31
- Posts: 13835
Re: Pseudoscience kills in Iraq
They had a Bush appointee join the company. In between prayer meetings they plot on how to fraud the government.
I'm not dead yet.
There are 3 types of people, those who can count and those who can't.
"There are few things graven in stone, excepting your date of death."
Offline
#18 2009-11-05 3:13 pm
- D'Eyncourt
- OMGDICTATOR
- Registered: 2001-12-27
- Posts: 8808
- Website
Re: Pseudoscience kills in Iraq
The James Randi and his Educational Foundation issues a formal challenge to the makers to prove their detectors work.
BTW: check out this list of substances that the detectors are supposedly able to find (from the makers' own advertisement):
High Explosives or Detonable Explosives Trinitrotoluene (TNT), DNT, Nitro Esters (PETN, nitroglycerine, ethylene glycol dinitrate), Ammonium nitrate, Dynamite, RDX/Hexogen/Octogan, Black Powder, ammunition & Propellants, Tetryl, Narcotics, Cocaine/Heroin/Morphine, THC/Marijuana/Cannabis, LSD/Ketamine/Midazolam, Amphetamine / D-methamphetamine, Ecstasy, Opium/Opiates, Chloro-Methyl & Benzodiazepine drugs, Ivory, Human Recognition (Detection).
BOYCOTT SONY
"I think the question now is not whether you went to Vietnam or whether you didn't, whether you fought in the war or fought against the war. I think the only question is whether we can find a president smart enough never to make a mistake like that again"--Molly Ivins, way back in 1992
Offline
#19 2009-11-05 3:52 pm
- mo' ron
- PS3 4 EVA
- From: NC, USA
- Registered: 2002-10-15
- Posts: 14257
Re: Pseudoscience kills in Iraq
I wonder if the IRaqis know it's BS, but they're just using it as a deterrent? because really, if someone wanted to bomb, they're going to bomb. Without stopping every vehicle, which is too prohibitive, they can't really do effective checks.
On the other hand, if they're paying $60000 per for some of the devices, i'm sure there must be something other method out there that would be even marginally more effective.
What is the difference between Vista and OSX?
- Microsoft employees are excited about OSX.
Offline
#20 2009-11-05 4:02 pm
- Pariah
- James Carville Fan..
- From: Belly Of The Beast, Oklahoma!
- Registered: 2001-05-24
- Posts: 18426
Re: Pseudoscience kills in Iraq
Sounds like the CEO of that dowsing company needs a bullet injection to the brain.
That's what should happen to war profiteers.
"and it's not surprising that they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."
Barack Obama
Offline
