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Every four years, the Boy Scouts of America holds a National Scout jamboree, where for ten days, about 30,000 scouts camp out and participate in a wide variety of activities. Currently, the US Department of Defense is the official host of the jamboree. Since 1981, the jamboree has been held at Fort A.P. Hill, a US Army base in Virginia. The US Government spends an average of $2 million a year towards hosting of the jamboree.

I assume you are aware that the 14th amendment prevents the federal government from discriminating against the boy scouts based on their political belief.

resedit wrote:

I assume you are aware that the 14th amendment prevents the federal government from discriminating against the boy scouts based on their political belief.

I assume you are aware that the 1st amendment prevents the federal government from discriminating against people based on religious belief.

resedit wrote:

From your link -

As part of the 1978 agreement, BSA paid for capital improvements at Fort A.P. Hill (water lines, road improvements, amphitheater, etc.) that are used by both the jamboree and unrelated military encampments. BSA uses the facility for four weeks once every four years and it is available to the military and other members of the public for the rest of the time.

Try again.

How much did they pay compared to what the government funds, which adds up in money and manpower to

Total Defense Department funding for these training and public relations activities averages $8 million per jamboree.

?

When the neo nazi's want to do a march in the town, can the town deny them a permit because of what they believe?
No.

When the town provides police services to protect them, is the town funding neo nazi's?
No.

Tallgeese wrote:

resedit wrote:

That's not federal funding of the Boy Scouts any more than Boy Scouts backpacking in a National Park is federal funding of the Boy Scouts.

The US Government spends an average of $2 million a year towards hosting of the jamboree.

Is there a breakdown of how much went to directly pay for scouting activities versus general maintenance and support.

For example, if a national park decided to upgrade or repair sidewalks for a large group, that would not necessarily count. However, if the park paid for food or waived lodging fees, that would.

Tallgeese wrote:

radarman wrote:

Tallgeese wrote:

resedit wrote:

That's not federal funding of the Boy Scouts any more than Boy Scouts backpacking in a National Park is federal funding of the Boy Scouts.

Is there a breakdown of how much went to directly pay for scouting activities versus general maintenance and support.

For example, if a national park decided to upgrade or repair sidewalks for a large group, that would not necessarily count. However, if the park paid for food or waived lodging fees, that would.

You know, if it were true that the government wasn't funding the Boy Scouts you'd think that the government would have made that argument. Instead,

The U.S. Department of Justice appealed the ruling on behalf of the Secretary of Defense, arguing that the military’s support for the jamboree does not violate the separation of church and state on the grounds that BSA is not a religious organization, that the plaintiffs had no legal standing to bring the suit in the first place, and that visiting the Jamboree is open to the general public.

But the District Court ruled that it was unconstitutional, and the appeals court overturned the decision solely on basis of legal standing.

So neither the courts nor the defendants, only you two, made the absurd argument that spending $8 million on a BSA event doesn't count as government funding for the BSA.

Slow down Slick, I just asked how much money went to general maintenance and upkeep of the facilities, versus direct support. Apparently, no one has an answer.

There is also the question of how much money the scouts put into general maintenance and upkeep, since that could offset any direct support. After all, if they spent $1M maintaining the facilities, and the government waived $1M in fees, then as far as I'm concerned, the tax-payer came out ahead.

Until it is answered, it's an open question as to whether the government is supporting them at all.

resedit wrote:

When the neo nazi's want to do a march in the town, can the town deny them a permit because of what they believe?
No.

When the town provides police services to protect them, is the town funding neo nazi's?
No.

Stop with the Nazis already.

The U.S. Department of Justice appealed the ruling on behalf of the Secretary of Defense, arguing that the military’s support for the jamboree does not violate the separation of church and state on the grounds that BSA is not a religious organization

It's not a religious organization.

The Boy Scouts has members from many different religions.
I was chaplain for my troop, and part of the small training my troop had for the position was to make sure nothing I said was specific to any religion.

Last edited by resedit (2009-11-09 11:19 am)

mrreet2001 wrote:

... but the still require you to have a religion. It's in the creed.

Young people need faith. There is abundant evidence that children benefit from the moral compass provided by religious tradition. We acknowledge that faith can become an important part of a child's identity. Each of the major faiths breeds hope, optimism, compassion, and a belief in a better tomorrow. Scouting encourages each young person to begin a spiritual journey through the practice of his or her faith tradition. One of the key tenets of Scouting is "duty to God." While Scouting does not define religious belief for its members, it has been adopted by and works with youth programs of all major faiths.

http://www.scouting.org/Visitor/WhyScou … tions.aspx

That doesn't really strike me as a requirement exactly. A requirement would be more like, "believe in God or don't bother trying to join."

Although it doesn't exactly say "atheists welcome," does it?

resedit wrote:

The U.S. Department of Justice appealed the ruling on behalf of the Secretary of Defense, arguing that the military’s support for the jamboree does not violate the separation of church and state on the grounds that BSA is not a religious organization

It's not a religious organization.

The Boy Scouts has members from many different religions.
I was chaplain for my troop, and part of the small training my troop had for the position was to make sure nothing I said was specific to any religion.

From a 1998 lawsuit, quoting the BSA's lawyer:

Although Boy Scouts of America is not a religious sect, it is religious, and, while the local council is not a house of worship like a church or a synagogue, it is a religious organization

btw, mind sharing the anti-BSA site you are getting your links from?

I suspect you've posted enough that I could find it, so why not just come out with it?

resedit wrote:

Yes, they reject atheism, but they do not espouse *a* religion - which is what the establishment clause is all about.

I guess that's true unless you've ever actually read the establishment clause:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

"Establishment" is a noun, not a verb.

"Establishment" means the same thing in the establishment clause that it means in the sentence "I enjoyed dining in your fine establishment."

What it means is that government shall make no law regarding any group established of religion or prohibiting the free exercise of such groups.

It wouldn't make any sense to say that "Congress shall make no law forming a state religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

What it means is that not only could Congress not legally make a law creating any state religion(since that would be a law with respect to a religious establishment), but that Congress could not legally make a law prohibiting or promoting the activities of religious establishments(since those would also be laws with respect to religious establishments).