Forums | MacLife

HackerJax · 2003-05-26 6:07 pm

..lol.. I can't decide if this is halarious, or pathetic.

I will bet you money most people don't care about Red X's, where the bar is, Fitts, or any of this petty to the extreme drivel. Well, except people obsessed with Windows to the point they study it and choose paltry cut / paste, Red X, nonsense to whine about..

I'm actually interested in what he has to say myself.

When I develop software I can do it in any number of ways, but if I'm smart I'll study the pioneers and I'll learn from the established ideas and foundations from which software development has grown.

So I'm curious to see what information he has. If he can present a good case to me based on the work layed out by the very men who originally invented the concepts we use in a GUI I'm all ears and will be more inclined to look at the whole subject objectively, even if that means conluding for myself that MS has broken many of the basic design principals of the GUI.

-=Jax=-

iopossum · 2003-05-26 6:28 pm

I'd like to add the concept of "infinite height". Its a gui design concept. The taskbar just like the dock and just like the mac os menubar has infinite height because you can flick the mouse that direction and it won't go past it. This is good. Applications in windows have menus towards the tops of the applications windows. This is bad. It is stupid and bad.
That ties in to Fitt's Law which works on the premise that items placed at the edges of the screen make better targets and are easier to manipulate and interact with. It makes sense to put important items, such as an application's menu bar, along the edge of the screen.

Then there's the issue of arranging information in a logical hierarchy. By nature, people who use western languages read from top to bottom, left to right. Due to how Windows' windows are, it places a generally non-interactive or non-productive element (the title bar of the window or application) in the top left, and thus the position of higher importance. Directly to the left of that, still on the top, are the windows' control widgets. Below that top row is then the menu bar for the window. Thus, due to the arrangement of window elements in Windows, Microsoft has given non-interactive elements, and a destructive element (the close box) a higher level of visual priority than the menu bar (and the close box being so large, and highlighted in red in XP's default appearance really only makes matters worse), which is vital to interaction, manipulation, etc. within the application. Placing non-interactive and/or destructive elements in a position of higher priority than actually using the application is a harmful design flaw.
..lol.. I can't decide if this is halarious, or pathetic.

I will bet you money most people don't care about Red X's, where the bar is, Fitts, or any of this petty to the extreme drivel. Well, except people obsessed with Windows to the point they study it and choose paltry cut / paste, Red X, nonsense to whine about..

And that is why Microsoft products suck. This typical mentality of just brushing off the "little things". The reason most people don't "care" about Fitt's and such is because they usually don't notice it. The best designed products make it seem natural, you shouldn't be saying "wow, this is really usefull the way this button is positioned." The fact of the matter is the sum of all these little things does add to a better user experience, and I for one am glad that the company that makes my OS cares about that and does not isntead tell me I'm stupid for caring about those things. These things are what makes the Mac OS so intuitive.

dj phat 2000 · 2003-05-26 6:29 pm

..lol.. I can't decide if this is halarious, or pathetic.

I will bet you money most people don't care about Red X's, where the bar is, Fitts, or any of this petty to the extreme drivel. Well, except people obsessed with Windows to the point they study it and choose paltry cut / paste, Red X, nonsense to whine about..
I'm actually interested in what he has to say myself.

When I develop software I can do it in any number of ways, but if I'm smart I'll study the pioneers and I'll learn from the established ideas and foundations from which software development has grown.

So I'm curious to see what information he has. If he can present a good case to me based on the work layed out by the very men who originally invented the concepts we use in a GUI I'm all ears and will be more inclined to look at the whole subject objectively, even if that means conluding for myself that MS has broken many of the basic design principals of the GUI.

-=Jax=-

I don't think AMD gets it. He is more of a follower then what he/she/it describes Mac users to be.

As much as it has been described by AMD that we need to stop drinking the kool-aid and to get our heads out of Steve Jobs Ass, it has become very prevalent that AMD is just that. Has one head up ass of a PC and every flavor of Microsofts OS.
I have yet to see any reason for AMD to post here other than to start problems. If you were here with the least bit of interest in our platform rather then dictating to a bunch of Mac addicts what you as a PC user feel is right, then maybe you would be at the very low end of cool.
maybe neutral

HackerJax · 2003-05-26 6:41 pm

I don't think AMD gets it. He is more of a follower then what he/she/it describes Mac users to be.

He has brought some good info to the table. He has thrown out technical information that I found interesting at least.

I feel that like all users of a platform or followers of anything from cars to rock bands that the mac users here are pretty normal. We all root for what we believe is the 'right way'. I do it myself so I don't blame anyone for some of the out in left field comments that come up. Its all good and I've learned some good stuff on these forums.

Zealots ? Yeah we all can be one at times. It happens. smile

-=Jax=-

Twisted Guy · 2003-05-26 7:17 pm

He has brought some good info to the table. He has thrown out technical information that I found interesting at least.

That's all past tense. Now he's just a Mac-hating troll. He's trying to fix us, make us change our ways, or something like that.

Frankly, I don't care. I'll get the facts and conclude what's best for me from that. I don't need anyone to tell me what I should do, how I should think, or anything like that.

I'll have to spend more time digging up UI concepts and stuff. I've spent the whole day wrangling CGI and server administration, which is more than enough to give an idiot artist a nice headache. On the plus side, I'm $100 closer to a 15 gig iPod.

iHate You · 2003-05-26 7:24 pm

AMD is my alter ego.

yelowpunk · 2003-05-26 9:15 pm

Oh, now I get it. AMD has a Troll icon. Jee-zus I'm slow. w0w. I think I'm going to go take a nap with my friend Mr. Nine m.m.

Oh, reason #??? -

Everytime you boot windows, you are reminded that the system you are using is just a shell for a very outdated system.

Yea, NT too.

[edit] Hey, why am I Brittany's cheuffer all of a sudden? Me no get again.[/edit]

dj phat 2000 · 2003-05-26 9:17 pm

I have no problem with anyone that wants to post up an alternative idea, just don't bringing it like it is the only way. Don't act like you know better then every one else. And knowing that this person really does not like the Mac platform by
1) Having a name like "AMD"
2) Having an avatar of a freaking Troll.
3) Idiotic statements

I mean really. You don't see Black folk hanging out at a Klan meeting in the south do you....??
Not saying it is that serious but really I think one would get the point. Don't hang out in a place your not wanted, and then don't go starting smurf and act like an ass.

Just not a good thing to do in my book...

Then again.. AMD makes me laugh....
neutral

squish · 2003-05-26 9:23 pm

We're discussing what makes a good product. People do that. I'm a programmer and I strive to make the best product that I can.

As for AMD, if he feels like wasting his life trolling this board, then i'll continue ignoring him big_smile

Steyr AUG · 2003-05-26 10:58 pm

1. save it under a different name
2. it probably was corrupted by an improper shutdown maybe?
1. That may have worked, but still... plus, it was the Normal template in Word, and I wasn't sure how that could affect things in the future...

2. Doubtful, unless Windows makes a habit of shutting itself down improperly...

power surge?

HackerJax · 2003-05-27 12:50 am

(this computer also shipped with a dead HD, btw...)

I think someone took you for a ride. The HD shipped broken ? This computer has been through something or has something seriously screwy with it going on.

-=Jax=-

kipper9034 · 2003-05-27 3:43 pm

i find it funny to see nearly every thread on these forums be changed to a different topic halfway through... as i recall the original post here suggested we try to find as many ways windows is inferior as we can

Steyr AUG · 2003-05-27 3:48 pm

i find it funny to see nearly every thread on these forums be changed to a different topic halfway through... as i recall the original post here suggested we try to find as many ways windows is inferior as we can

well it wasnt a very good idea anyway

fanothaft · 2003-05-27 6:18 pm

i find it funny to see nearly every thread on these forums be changed to a different topic halfway through... as i recall the original post here suggested we try to find as many ways windows is inferior as we can

It bekaus we is all stuped. lol

edman007 · 2003-05-27 6:55 pm

don't know if its been posted yet but:
f***microsoft.com --can't get the link to work, won't let me to use that word

plenty of reasons on this site

totalcodex · 2003-05-27 8:53 pm

So I'm curious to see what information he has. If he can present a good case to me based on the work layed out by the very men who originally invented the concepts we use in a GUI I'm all ears and will be more inclined to look at the whole subject objectively, even if that means conluding for myself that MS has broken many of the basic design principals of the GUI.

-=Jax=-

To be fair, Apple has violated some of these design principles as well. Remember pop-up/tabbed folders from the pre-OS X days? This was a perfect implementation of a useful and appealing GUI addition that fit Fitts' law (or theory, or whatever).

In comes OS X. Where's the pop-up folders? Gone! Now, we have the Dock, which, as useful and nice looking as it is, violates Fitts' law. Bring the mouse to the very bottom of the screen, and clicking will only bring up the Finder. Right clicking will only bring up the Finder contextual menu. You need to move the mouse a little further up for it to select the element you want to get to. Contrast with the behavior of the menu bar.

There's a few third-party apps to add similar features to OS X (drop drawers? Something like that...?).

HackerJax · 2003-05-28 5:00 am

To be fair, Apple has violated some of these design principles as well.

I'm going to honestly assume that both companies have at times broken many design principals when it comes to the GUI as they all sometimes break design principals when they write software. It happens with everything from time to time. There is a human element involved.

Someone said something about the X in the top corner of a dialog in windows and I've thought a lot about it. I don't see where that is bad UI design. Considering the context of the desktop in windows it makes sense. We already have title bars on most all windows, that could be argued as redundancy in its own right. I don't see where an X is that big of a deal. Its fast, its always there and there is no doubt as to what it does. I asked 4 people at work and I can't find anyone who dosen't know what that X does. I saw my friend's grandmother the other night close 2 dialogs via the X button and she can barely see the screen her eyesight is so poor. If a 74 year old woman can understand and master it I'm thinking its not that bad of a design.

Dialog boxes also don't commit suicide in windows. The desktop is the top level window and all running apps notify the OS via the desktop. Windows recieves a notification message requesting an unload and sends back a WM_DESTROY message and the dialog unloads from memory at that point. You can't make a window close without it recieving WM_DESTROY. If you could, you wouldn't see the famous 'Program Not Responding' dialog box. I guess you can by crashing it, but then the exception handler in NT kicks in and terminates the process freeing the memory it was allocated. Its a very robust and proven system. Its hard to make 1 program hang NT to the point that the OS totally becomes unusable. When it does happen its usually a device driver issue (device drivers have direct kernel access) or you have somehow hung explorer.exe itself. The taskbar rarely is unable to launch in either case and you can recover from any app crash 99% of the time.

I honestly don't recall the last time I had Win2000 totally lock up on me. I'm going to guess its been close to 2 years and iirc I had a video card that was dying and causing the lockups.

Sorry for the technical puke but I got on a roll there. wink

-=Jax=-

fanothaft · 2003-05-28 7:10 pm

don't know if its been posted yet but:
f***microsoft.com --can't get the link to work, won't let me to use that word

plenty of reasons on this site

Do what to them??? eek

Man, thats a lot of sex. roll lol

Forums | MacLife

#101 2003-05-26 6:07 pm

Re: Inspired by reason #476 windoz sucks

#102 2003-05-26 6:28 pm

Re: Inspired by reason #476 windoz sucks

#103 2003-05-26 6:29 pm

Re: Inspired by reason #476 windoz sucks

#104 2003-05-26 6:41 pm

Re: Inspired by reason #476 windoz sucks

#105 2003-05-26 7:17 pm

Re: Inspired by reason #476 windoz sucks

#106 2003-05-26 7:24 pm

Re: Inspired by reason #476 windoz sucks

#107 2003-05-26 9:15 pm

Re: Inspired by reason #476 windoz sucks

#108 2003-05-26 9:17 pm

Re: Inspired by reason #476 windoz sucks

#109 2003-05-26 9:23 pm

Re: Inspired by reason #476 windoz sucks

#110 2003-05-26 10:58 pm

Re: Inspired by reason #476 windoz sucks

#111 2003-05-27 12:50 am

Re: Inspired by reason #476 windoz sucks

#112 2003-05-27 3:43 pm

Re: Inspired by reason #476 windoz sucks

#113 2003-05-27 3:48 pm

Re: Inspired by reason #476 windoz sucks

#114 2003-05-27 6:18 pm

Re: Inspired by reason #476 windoz sucks

#115 2003-05-27 6:55 pm

Re: Inspired by reason #476 windoz sucks

#116 2003-05-27 8:53 pm

Re: Inspired by reason #476 windoz sucks

#117 2003-05-28 5:00 am

Re: Inspired by reason #476 windoz sucks

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Re: Inspired by reason #476 windoz sucks

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