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Hmm...you people go to very different schools than the one I go to. We have TVs, computers and textbooks. My school offers more AP classes than a person could ever possibly take and all sorts of crazy computer certification classes. And we complain about giving money away to poor schools. I guess I lucked out and go to one of your "model suburban" high schools. It's actually halfway cool to be smart, the head cheerleader and captain of the football team take AP classes. The later is accepted to Harvard and wants to go to Dartmouth. We don't even have a gang problem. The biggest issue at my school is that people can't wear hats anymore. Well, that and you can't pay cash for anything. Our lunches are all on a debit system. It sucks for lazy folks like myself. That and my school ID picture makes me look like I had a sunburn.
Lauren

I meant the "we have tvs, computers and textbooks" in the context that they were all fairly new and decent. We have a messed up principal, but our administration does a pretty good job.

My teacher's union was the one fighting for a new 1.5 million dolllar staff workroom that finished 500k over budget...  That could have been new books or computers...

For the record, I don't think you can compare the price of a workroom to the price of a stadium.    Something tells me they're not quite of equal value...  Hehe...  (Yes, my school has undertaken projects such as a wrestling room, which are probably better comparisons to a stadium )

I'm not saying teachers unions are awful - only that they're a mixed blessing.

Teachers unions are also the ones who keep the untalented teachers in their jobs by fighting for tenure (I'm sorry, any teacher who uses pressure points to wrestle students to the ground shouldn't be allowed to continue - but the union threatened to strike if he were fired, supposedly no "proof").

Teachers unions are the ones who push for higher salaries (taking money away from students) and also for better teachers' facilities. 

I'm not trying to badmouth a union, I only want to point out that they're not infallible.

I'm not saying teachers unions are awful - only that they're a mixed blessing.

Are you really going to tell me that every teachers union is infallible and has never made a bad choice? 

Are you really going to tell me that every teachers union is infallible and has never made a bad choice? 

no. i'm not going to tell you that they are infallible, they can, and do, make mistakes. so i'm in agreement with you on that.

but then, do you think individuals are infallible?

why hold an organization made of individuals up to an ideal that you don't hold the individuals themselves to?

How many times must I say that I am not against teacher unions?????

Yesh!

Listen to what I'm saying people - you all make it sound as if I'm for abolishing every form of organized labor.

I will say it one more time, in caps, to make sure everybody sees it:  TEACHERS UNIONS ARE A MIXED BLESSING, AND SHOULD BE SEEN AS SUCH - THEY ARE NOT INFALLIBLE, AND THUS MAKE MISTAKES AT THE SAME TIME THEY DO GOOD.

OK, I won't say that again because I am sick of people acting like I am 100% against teachers unions...  I know you guys like to fight, but yesh, enough is enough - read my entire post.

And the whole "Teachers spend extra time in school" - that can be true, but if you do things right, teachers spend less time in school.  Right now a friend is at SDSU to become a teacher - she'll spend 2.5 years, and in that time have both a BA and a teaching credential (while taking normal unit loads)....

And as for teachers being underpaid - what they lack in salary can be made up for in benefits.  An engineer, last time I checked, doesn't get 20 weeks of vacation to start - and no matter how many papers you grade, you can't make up for the vacation.  Teachers often (thanks to the union) have better medical coverage along with a decent pension plan.  There's also decent salaries to move into, usually (I'm not saying a teacher will ever make what an engineer does, but it's not like they're living at the poverty level).


As for the pressure point thing, this is what happened.  A math teacher at my school chose to use these on a student (who wasn't really misbehaving, he was joking around during a work time).  He did this repeatedly, over the entire school year, singling out a single individual.  The school threatened to fire the teacher, and the union said they'd strike if the school fired the teacher.  Well, the school didn't want a strike...  Guess what happened?  Teacher was transferred to another school in the district.  Sounds a lot like what the Catholics are doing with priests who misbehave.

Teachers, like engineers, are salaried, not hourly.  So technically, yes, they are being paid while they are on vacation, the same way an engineer is being paid while she is on vacation.

If teachers were hourly, then the 20 week forced "vacation" would be rather unpleasant.  As it is (at least in my district) with a salaried employee, you would make the same whether you have that time off or not.

Example: 

Let's say a starting salary for a teacher in my area is 40k / year.  He also gets about 20 weeks "paid" vacation (ie: whether or not he takes the vacation, his salary is unaffected).

Another woman makes 11$ / hr.  She is not "paid" for her vacation, and only by working all year manages to make 26k / year.  If she had the 20 weeks off, because she is hourly, she would only make around 18k, just at the US poverty level.

If teachers were paid hourly, I could see the desire to work through summer.  But as they are paid by a salary, less vacation time is unlikely to equal less pay.

Granted, a few companies allow you to transfer vacation pay into actual money (so you are paid for 55 weeks instead of 52) but this is not the norm.  I'd also like to point out that some teachers do choose to work during the summer (whether it's in education or another area).

Teachers, like engineers, are salaried, not hourly.  So technically, yes, they are being paid while they are on vacation, the same way an engineer is being paid while she is on vacation.

untrue.  my father is a teacher. and unless the method of payment is severely different in your area than it is in mine (Ontario), then i'm speaking from experience.

Let's say a starting salary for a teacher in my area is 40k / year.

again... this is incorrect according to my experiece.   and again, i'm gambling on your salary's being similar to the one's in Ontario, BUT, starting salary for a teacher here is about $36,000 CND. it won't take you long to figure out how much less that is in USD by checking the current exchange rate.

a teacher with extensive eductation (at least a masters degree) with over 20 years of work experience can ONLY make up to about $68-$70,000 a year. again, this is in canadian dollars.

this is hardly a high paying job.



and just to make sure you know, i totally understand your "mixed blessing" comment about unions.     many unions sometimes demand some strange or unnessecery things. BUT. i am still a extremely strong support of them, especially in public education.

Are you thinking of candian teachers unions or US unions? Because it seems you dont have first hand experiance with ours.

As for "they dont get paid enought " well they also dont pay money into social security. Instead they have a far more lucrative PERA system.

The main reason I dislike the teachers unions is that they torpeado any program that they disprove of, even if it may benifit the students. In my experiance the union is only looking out for themselves, not the teachers or students.

teachers do not have tenure in canada. or at least ontario.

they still have the union protecting their job.

but considering the number of uninformed parents who complain about "how terrible their children's teachers are" while having no idea what actually happens in a classroom let alone all of the time that goes into preparing for teaching i'd say that teachers deserve to have an organization standing up for their jobs.

collective bargaining is probably the ONLY thing that gives teachers ANY faith in their chosen profession at all.

and when it comes down to it, the parents sure as hell aren't the one's looking out for the quality of education their children are recieving. the majority of the time parents stand by and congratulate the government they voted in because they're getting a tax break while removing the real classroom funding.

perhaps i'm biased. because my father is a teacher. and he's also a very active member of the Ontario Secondary School Teachers Federation,

but i've been attending the annual meetings for this union since before i can rememeber. and if it wasn't for them the situation in secondary schools in my province would be far more grave.

I live in calgary, alberta... and when the teachers go on strike in the public system, it really hurts the students. I mean, not too long ago, there was the risk that some grade 12 students would have to re-do grade 12 because they wouldn't be able to finish in time.

I am a bit biased, as my dad believes here that the right to strike is abused. I haven't researched into it, so I can't say much on my behalf.

As for teacher pays, one of my teachers earns about as much as her brother, who removes people's garbage. But I can't say whether that is a valid argument, as both the jobs are very different.

And this topic has gone way off... (Not that I'm helping)