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Funny thing about this debate, uncle Dick. You challenged me to provide something other than anecdotal evidence that show qualified black people were losing job opportunities to unqualified white people.  But when I asked you  to provide something other than anecdotal evidence that qualified white people were losing job opportunities to unqualified black people, it seems you've suddenly decided that it wasn't necessary.

Actually, it is important for you to provide evidence (which you obviously don't have). It is entirely unimportant for me to do the same because, as I stated earlier:

There aren't any studies necessary because the very essence of Affirmative Action is the unjust and discriminatory "boosting" of minorities over white males. I don't think anyone's contending otherwise, liberal or conservative. The issue at hand is whether such programs are useful or even constitutional for that matter.

I'll try to explain it for you in simpler terms.

As it stands now in the year 2003, I see absolutely no evidence that minorities are discriminated against in college admissions and job interviews. Affirmative Action was designed to counter such discrimination when it did exist back in the 60s and 70s. Therefore, since there is no longer any evidence that such discrimination still exists, I see no need for the program to exist any longer. At this point in time, it is unjust and unfair towards white males by its very definition.

Again, regardless of whether or not white males are actually being discriminated against in practice, they are most certainly being discriminated against in principle. Since no legal basis exists for discrimination against minorities, you must provide other evidence that it is occuring in practice. Understand now?

At least you stated explicitly that you yourself don't believe in the notion of white superiority. But I'd still like to know why you think anyone is justified in believing that-- AA or not.

Of course I don't. Your feeble attempts to accuse me of racism only indicate your desperation. I don't see how I could possibly justify a belief that I don't believe in myself.

I do, however, believe that white supremicists have the right to believe that they are superior. They just don't have the right to put such a belief into practice and discriminate.

My bottom line is this: I've said numerous times that AA would never had been necessary if organizations in the public and private sectors would have been more proactive on their own about eliminating discrimination in hiring, education, housing, public accomodations, etc. They weren't. Many of them still aren't. The list of discrimination lawsuits in just the last 10 years in which U.S. companies settled to avoid further prosecution reads like a Who's Who of the Fortune 500.

Delightful. We're finally getting into some hard facts. Please provide sources regarding the discrimination lawsuits.

I'll be happy to join to you in observing the end of AA as soon as something is put in its place that works better. Why don't suggest something? I'm listening.

How about <gasp> nothing? How about trusting that the American people have evolved over the past 200 or so years? How about casting your own prejudices and suspicions aside for a moment and seeing how different the world is today? As long as the government endorses racism through AA programs, we will never be truly free.

As it stands now in the year 2003, I see absolutely no evidence that minorities are discriminated against in college admissions and job interviews. Affirmative Action was designed to counter such discrimination when it did exist back in the 60s and 70s. Therefore, since there is no longer any evidence that such discrimination still exists, I see no need for the program to exist any longer. At this point in time, it is unjust and unfair towards white males by its very definition.

So you see no reason to give certain groups (mind you, I think that race could play PART of the admissions process...along with economic status) a 'leg-up' when applying for school?  Even those students who have went to school in poor areas, probably receiving an education that is not on par with schools in richer areas?

There are 'facts' at play here.  Standardized test score data shows that black students, on the whole, have increased at the same rate of ability as white students...just about 10-15 years behind schedule. 

Personally, if I were a college administrator, I might think twice about accepting a upper-middle class student who went to a private high school and has a marginal GPA when another student who came from a poor area is up against him with the same numbers.  The system is, obviously, not perfect, though I have heard law professors here at UT give a mulitude of good reasons why they went to court to defend the school's ability to use AA.  (even after they lost the lawsuit, they began an admissions process by which every candidate had a face-to-face interview...though their race couldn't be asked ())

Everyone is aware that these are the same types of programs that get atheletes admitted to programs they normally couldn't get into?  Is anyone suing on that account?

First off, I'm another who wouldn't mind seeing AA go completely. Cut the favoritism in all cases, legacy, affirmative action, everything. When an application comes in, strip all names off it, just use the social security number to ID the person.

Oh, KHannon, do you know Jennifer carter at Notre Dame? Probably not, it's a big school (I got accepted then couldn't afford the 30k, but I know about the school). She's a junior there, played soccer her first two years. Anyway, if you do, she's my cousin.

First off, I'm another who wouldn't mind seeing AA go completely. Cut the favoritism in all cases, legacy, affirmative action, everything. When an application comes in, strip all names off it, just use the social security number to ID the person.

Oh, KHannon, do you know Jennifer carter at Notre Dame? Probably not, it's a big school (I got accepted then couldn't afford the 30k, but I know about the school). She's a junior there, played soccer her first two years. Anyway, if you do, she's my cousin.

Im going to have to disagree with a part of your post. The Social security number should have *NO USE* in a university setting. It was never meant to be the national ID and it makes me angry every time I am asked for it. People dont understand how valuable it is, and how someone could mess up your life really badly if they got it.

Been there done that, have already been to court for someone taking my ID, and ruining my credit.  The credit companies although agreed that it wasn't me that did the purchases, they would not take the black marks off my credit... I already tried to fight it, but to no avail.

Cyberpawz

The solution exists in improving the schools in poorer areas, not punishing "rich" students.

Why should preference be given to students "behind schedule"? Why can't we solve the problem at the source through better instruction in the K-12 arena?

Universities take less of a "risk" on students who have a certain program "in their blood".

Okay...you're more of the 'conservative' leaning, no?  Explain to me how we improve minority schools in poor areas when there are no resources to create that change?  When people in more wealthy areas couldn't care less about those students?  What happens in the meantime?

LOL...and this program 'in the blood' bit...that's silly.   

Like I said, coming from the university that first went to court on this issue...I've heard many good reasons for the program.  One professor did offer a positive side to the lawsuit ruling that came about there:  That no student could ever look at a fellow black student and accuse them of being where they are because of an AA program.  That is a good thing.

When are people going to learn, that discrimination no matter what type it is, "reverse discrimination", and discrimination are still cut from the same cloth....

School systems, when privatized, can do whatever they wish. They are not held to the same standards that a public school system is. A private school system can have an applicatory standard of all black, or all whites if they wish. It is not for the government, or the surrounding area to say.  For a private institution can have it's own rules are regulations if it wished...

The reason  AA does not work the same way in businesses, is because some person, possibly hispanic, black, or whatnot found that the majority of white people were being hired instead of the work place being multicultural in it's hiring practices. 

This led to the downfall of not just American superiority in the markets but increased racism that would soon become daily practice. People are no longer hired because of their qualifications, but because of the color of their skin, which is not just wrong, but is practicing, and reinforcing racism.

There is no such thing as good racism, there is no such thing as reverse racism, even though people like using those words. If you exclude, or include a person, or a group just because of their gender, or racial ethnicity, or their color of their skin (which is almost the same as the last part) then you are practicing racism, even though you may not think yourself as such, you are racist.

People have to get rid of AA, or bring it back to the foundations of which it was meant to be.  Gender and Color blind. If they do not, then this country is going to rot in it's own feces, as it tries to wade through it to correct a problem that should never of gotten out of hand in the first place.

Cyberpawz

Here's the listing of point systems used at Michigan
80 points

Here's the listing of point systems used at Michigan
80 points

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Hi Folks!