Forums | MacLife

OK, I've installed the new patch (1.03c).. but I still have the same problem as mentioned by MrEddy in the first post (I have a Radeon 9000). So how do I turn of the vertex shaders??

Sorry, Brad, but if the game performs *worse* with the fancy shaders off, then the game was programmed poorly. Turning the fancy shaders off should improve performance. That's the way it used to be done.

DragonKnight wrote:

Sorry, Brad, but if the game performs *worse* with the fancy shaders off, then the game was programmed poorly. Turning the fancy shaders off should improve performance. That's the way it used to be done.

Patently untrue. Any time you offload stuff from the GPU to the CPU you're gonna decrease performance. Look at any game that supports software rendering compared to hardware accelerated rendering (back in the late 90s) and you'll see that hardware rendering both runs faster AND has all sorts of little graphical gimmicks and tricks that aren't there in the software version. It sounds like the shaders can be done on a supported graphics card, but turning them off requires things be rendered in software because the GPU doesn't support those options. Therefore, the game will both run slower and look worse because the CPU is being asked to do more and offload less to the GPU.

I can't figure out how to change the resolution beyond 640x480, although at least I'm not experiencing any of these glitches.

Oh wait, I'm playing on an Xbox. Gotcha.

DragonKnight wrote:

Sorry, Brad, but if the game performs *worse* with the fancy shaders off, then the game was programmed poorly. Turning the fancy shaders off should improve performance. That's the way it used to be done.

Actually, that's generally not true in a well-designed game. Typically, shaders can be used to either increase eye candy or offload calculations to the GPU - or both. In the case of KOTOR, they offload bone transformations for the models to the GPU via vertex shaders, freeing up the CPU. The problem is that the vertex programs are too large for the r200 hardware and end up being emulated in software. The latest Mac KOTOR patch fixes this, so with that in place, turning off the shaders really doesn't help even on gimpy hardware.

I'm not being difficult, Brad, but we will have to agree to disagree. I don't understand why, when a graphic is turned off, it should be sent to be rendered in software mode. It should be completely ignored. When you turn it off, the GPU and CPU should ignore it.  To me, if it runs it through software mode when it is supposed to be turned off, it is poor programming. I have well over 120 games and not one suffers a performance hit when fancy eye candy is turned off, and I am using a Radeon 8500.  Not UT series, Quake series, Jedi Knight2; NOLF;NOLF2; etc.

But what do I know. Still sounds like poor  or weird programming. Oh well.

Because whatever it was that was being rendered by the vertex shaders, has to be done in a less complex fashion on the CPU. the shaders are off, but the pixels still have to be modeled and rendered somehow. If the GPU can't do it, then the CPU takes over in software. Again, look at any of the early 3D games. They always ran faster with more eye candy then the same games in software, even with all the eye candy turned off. The same is true now, turn the options off, and the CPU has to do something at a lower level that looks worse but eats CPU cycles because it's a type of calculation the GPU can no longer handle. Hence lower frame rates.

Goat on Parade wrote:

What the hell are you guys playing?!

KOTOR (or KotOR) is "Knights of the Old Republic", a role-playing game set in the Star Wars universe.

http://www.aspyr.com/games.php/mac/kotor/

Because he is only 1336 and not 1337.

People have already suggested how to make KOTOR more playable, albeit not directly.  I'll spell it out for you.  The problem is your video card.  By switching to a different video card (Geforce series was mentioned), the problem will go away.

BadMrMojo wrote:

Brad Oliver wrote:

You are making the assumption that "vertex shaders == fancy eye candy" when that's in general not the case for KOTOR. The main thrust of vertex shaders in KOTOR is to do all the model bone transformations for the various characters on the GPU. This must be done - it's not eye-candy.

Nope. Sorry, Brad. You've been trumped by some kid from Texas. You'll just have to agree to disagree with the immutable truth of some schmuck's opinion.



Seriously, guys... Brad very clearly knows what he's talking about. I can't even fathom why you think that your assumptions, observations, guesses and opinions carry more weight than the factual knowledge coming from the guy who actually coded the port.

That's like telling a writer that he used a typewriter, not a word processor, to write his last novel. You can tell what he really used because you read the book.

Do you see the fallacy here? Drives me nuts, sometimes... but don't mind me and my pet peeves. Enjoy the argument.

Mojo - Just because Dragon Knight is a "normal member" and Brad Oliver is a "celebrity visitor" is no reason you can call DK names to defend Brad. While DK is obviously hitting close to home by calling Brad's work "poor programming," he has a right to seek clarification on this issue, which Brad is generously providing.

Furthermore, if KotOR actually was programmed poorly, DK would have every right to say so. Brad is obviously doing a good job in clearing things up for him; your name-calling is not necessary.

For the benefit of the thread, I'm going to try and summarize this exchange: DK asserts that vertex shaders are an eye-candy feature, and turning them off should result in better performance, not worse; Brad has stated that vertex shaders are not eye-candy, and are instead a fundamental element of the KotOR engine; so, turning off GPU support for vertex shaders fixes the pre-patch r200 bugginess but forces the CPU to render them instead, slowing everything down immensely.

Is this a fair summary?

DragonKnight wrote:

He should have said that the first time.

See post #13 in this thread - not my first, but definitely way back there.

Can I fight Brad if I get a lightsaber?