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Antibiotics. Check with your local fish store.

What was the last addition to the tank? Perhaps a new fish, plant or rock brought in some undesirable bacteria or other infectious agent.

Yes, an aeration unit is mandatory for almost all fish.  Betas are one of the exceptions. Gold fish are not.  That would also explain why they're lethargic and hanging around the filter intake.  More water motion equals more oxygen across their gills.  You probably have a nearly oxygen depleted tank and a build up of dissolved organics.  Adding an aerator will probably completely fix the problem.

Last edited by Maxwell Knight (2005-02-25 5:30 pm)

Get rid of the ammonia thing. If you have good unchlorinated well water, you really don't need anything else.

Get live plants for some of the filtration.

The goldfish definitely need aeration, and a good sign of oxygen deprivation is they go up near the top. Also, keep the temperature as low as possible. My koi and goldfish are all very happy out inn the backyard under the ice. Just don't feed them as much when the temp is down near 40 or less.

It will not hurt the fish if you change all of the water in the tank and give a thorough rinsing to the gravel. Of course, don't use any detergents or bleach or ammonia or anything else except water and elbow grease when you wash the tank and toys.

Goldfish are pretty hardy. You don't need any algae eaters in the tank if you change 25-50% of the water every week or two and have plants and good aeration. Snails are pretty good cleaners if you want them.

Actually, the fish sit near the botom, rather than the top.  They just sit there most of the day like they do at night with the light off.  The water temps in my tank are usually between 60 and 65 because that is all the warmer I keep the house in winter.  I have had these fish in this tank about 4 months or more now, and the water has always been crystal clear.  I got the alge eaters because I kept getting a buildup of alge on the tank, even with weekly water changes.  The two have taken care of the problem, even though I was told that I would probably need four for my size tank.  I am thinking that there must be something in our water that causes the alge bloom problem.  Maybe something in the pipes as they were put in back in 1949.  We have been drawing from the same 38 foot deep well since the mid to late 1800's.  I am going to try the complete water change tomorrow and clean the gravel well.  I got the larger river gravel instead of the fine, colored stuff, because I figured that it would be easier to clean.  We shall see about that.  I have a syphon for changing water that is supposed to clean the gravel by agitating it and sucking out the "poo" as it were.  That thing doesn't do smurf.  Most of the time, all it does is bring the junk to the surface and then drops it without removing it.

I used to do complete water changes every week in the smaller tank, but the lady at the local pet shop said that it isn't good for the fish because the old water has a complete micro organism ecosystem in it that you remove when you replace all the water.  It takes awhile for this to return, and that shock can make the fish sick.  The problem is that goldfish are actualy Carp, which are tough little fish.  If the PCB's in the Fox River can't kill them, then a complete fresh water change shouldn't.  Now I just have to figure out how to catch the little buggers.  They have outgrown my net since I put them in this tank. 

I'll keep you updated on the progress.  If the water gets cloudy again, then I am going to have to take more drastic steps such as:

Aerator
Better filter
More frequent water changes
etc.

Thanks

-Rich

I suspect your chemistry is out of balance.
Algae Eaters (I'm guessing Plecostemus??) are dirty fish. With only four goldfish, you probably did not have the biology to deal with the increase in amonia caused by the introduction of two algae eaters.

It's not the end of the world - get yourself a good chemistry test kit and watch the levels - ammonia will rise, and biology to deal with that will start to grow - creating nitrites, which also are not good. The ammonia level will then drop and biology to deal with the nitrites will increase creating nitrates, which are harmless - but can cause an algae explosion, and nitrates will drop. You deal with the nitrates by removing 10 to 15% of the water every week and replacing it with fresh water.

If you are using stuff to remove amonia now - that is inhibiting the biology that naturally keeps things in balance.
Also - make sure you vacuum your gravel - food in the gravel can very quickly fowl the water. Doesn't take much. You can vacuum the gravel at the same time you remove water on your weekly water change.

Does that filter have a biowheel? If not - you should get a biowheel, and don't change the biowheel when it looks dirty - that's where quite a bit of the biology will live.

The best filters imho are canister filters that go under the tank. You can put an undergravel filter system in, and attach the pickup for the canister filter to the undergravel filter system - so that water is drawn through the gravel and then into the canister system - with that set up, you don't need a biowheel - as the biology will live in the gravel. But with thise filters that hang on the side like that, you need a biowheel - because water isn't being pulled through the gravel, so the biology (which needs oxygenated water flow) will tend to live in the filter system, and evertime you change the media - it has to start over, unless you have a biowheel for it to live on that you DON'T change.

Well, you've gotten some good advice, and some bad (and sometimes from the same person), so let me try to help sift through it.

The milky white cloudiness is a bloom of organisms (or less likely, algae) living suspended in the water.  They are most likely feeding off the excess nutrients in the tank, as there are too many fish in it.  The recent addition of the two plecostomus (the algae eaters) is the most likely cause.  (If the recent fish were otocinclus sp. or the problematic "Chinese Algae Eater", then it's another reason, perhaps the large goldfish just caught up with the tank.) 

But that's just a symptom.  I suspect the root problem here is the ammonia-blocker.  Let me explain: The "biology" that resedit spoke of in regards to neutralizing organic waste in the aquarium are two organisms that feed off of ammonia.  One -- nitrosomas -- ingests ammonia and releases nitirites, the other -- nitrobacter -- converts that to nitrates.  (I may have gotten the names reversed, mea culpa.)  All three forms of ammonia are harmful to fish, but nitrate is the least so.  Regular water changes help in eliminating nitrates (assuming one's replacement water doesn't contain any).  Anyway, these helpful bacteria live on surfaces wherever there's oxygenated water.  For instance, in filter media, on filter intakes, on decorations near the filter intake or outlet.  If the water is highly oxygenated, and there is sufficient food, these bacteria can be on every surface in the tank, and even suspended in the water. 

At any rate, when you're using an ammo-blocker, you're not letting your tank fully "cycle" because the ammonia isn't feeding the bacteria.  (Or, really, if I understand it right, the ammonia is attached to the ammonia-blocker, and the only bacteria are living there, and it's not enough.)  A test kit will ... uh, test this.  Just chart the amount of ammonia, nitrite, and nitrates in a newly filled, lightly stocked tank.

So, what to do?  Ditch the ammo-blocker.  Do a small water change every other day (10-15%).  Consider lowering the lit hours to 2-4 hours/a day for a week or two, on the off chance the bloom is photosynthetic or to stave off a real algal bloom replacing it.  Consider getting rid of the algal eaters.  Consider an air pump.  Continue with the 25% water changes every week or two after this clears.

If it was me, I'd put the goldfish in a pond and watch them flourish.

Here's a few things not to do, though:  Don't do a complete water change, scrub all the decorations, and clean the filter.  Ammonium-eating bacteria are heavily dependent on water and oxygen; within seconds of lacking either, they begin to die.  In the normal course of a complete water change, total filter cleaning or whatever, whatever you've taken out of the water has had it's entire population of bacteria die off.  Plus, taking all the fish out and everything stresses fish. 

Don't put any live plants in this tank.  Most aquarium plants will not flourish in the tank as you described it.  One notable exception is anacharis sp., which the goldfish will also eat readily.  When the tank is settled (no ammonia, no nitrites), you might consider throwing some in there.  Other possibilities are java moss and java fern.  Note that these are the hardiest aquarium plants out there.  (Actually, this has to be a "maybe do", since the anacharis might very well be a good fit.)

Not all aquarium fish need an air pump running an aerator.  In a fully-stocked plant tank, the plants will provide a lot of oxygen.  In lightly-stocked tanks, there may be enough oxygen already in the water.  A filter output may provide just as much surface disturbance to create gas exchange.  But if, after this clears up, you feel you need it, throw a sponge filter connected to an air pump in the tank and have at it.

Oh, and a word about algae.  You say you got the algae eaters to combat some algae.  Here's the thing: it's the algae eaters who caused this bloom.  If they're plecostomus sp., they can likely grow to a foot and half in length.  Yes, they will eat some algae.  If/when that's not enough, they'll eat anything else, too.  And they'll create a lot of waste.  Whereas real, honest-to-goodness algae is a helpful plant.  If you dislike the look, scrub it off, but if algae is a problem, then you have too much of either light or nutrients.  I've known people to be stymied about algae when they keep the aquarium lights on for 16 hours per day.

Well, I've rambled enough.  I hope it helps, and good luck.

TheConfuzed1 wrote:

It's been a little while since I had my tank set up, but I remember it being:

Nitrites = bad
Nitrates = good

nitrates are good in the sense that they indicate the biology is working.
They can however cause an algae explosion, which then results in an amonia spike from dead algae.
That's why you want to keep the nitrate level low, through water changes (I think under 20 ppm but I haven't had fish in awhile)

Yeah - I'm hoping to set up a fish tank again.
I would set it up the same way I set up my parents fish tank (80 gallon I think - has 7 goldfish and one plecostemus)

Good cabinet under the tank - there's a canister filter in the cabinet.
Undergavel filter system, just enough gravel so you can't see the undergravel system.
But instead of driving the undergravel filter with an air pump, I put the canister pickup tube into it - it fit perfectly, so all the water that gets sucks into the canister goes through the gravel. This helps suck uneaten food into the filter system. The output of the canister of course dumps into the top of the tank.

On the other side of the tank from where the canister suck/output is - there is a decorative bubbler to help oxygenate the water.

When we set up the tank - it was when they moved, the fish had outgrown the other tank - and the other tank had a crack in the acrylic that was spreading, though not leaking - so we had to move all the fish at once.

When setting up the new tank, I brought over the filter from the old and dripped it into the filter of the new, so that the microbes etc. would be there. But it still was an uncycled tank, so I had dad watch the amonia very closely - as it was guaranteed to spike above what was safe with that many fish. They also underfed until the tank was cycled - but dad watched the amonia, and did water changes to bring it down to safe levels - even though that made the tank take longer to cycle, it's better than dead fish. Luckily gold fish are fairly hardy, and so are plecostemi. Eventually (I think it took four weeks) the amonia levels kept themselves in check and the nitrite spike was only bad for a few days, the biology to take care of that seemed to be pretty quick.

That tank is a neat story though - little brother at a fair won a gold fish, that gold fish initially was kept in a 2.5 gallon plastic tank - with a corner filter etc. - but it outgrew it, needing a larger tank - and with the larger tank (20 gallon) a few more goldfish were introduced, then a few more - until it had the seven or so it has now - and now, they are huge.

Oh - when I set up a tank, it's not going to be goldfish.
There are some wild strains of platties that are quite rare, smaller and not as beautiful as what you find in pet stores, and expensive - only available via mail order from breeders.

That's what I want - because I think it is sad that these wild strains are disapearing - partly because of habitat destruction, and partly because of captive bred hybrid strains being released and crossing with them.

I won't run a "breeding program" but I'll let let them breed in the tank, maybe sell the young or feed them to garter snakes or something, so the population doesn't get too big.