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Tom_N wrote:

assassin_bill wrote:

Considering it will all be x86... emulation should be easy and painless with minimal overhead...

Emulation of what?  Emulation of the video hardware that Mac OS X supports, using different video hardware?

Hmmm...I notice that Microsoft's Virtual PC emulates an x86 CPU but does not attempt to emulate accelerated video cards.  As far as I know, it doesn't support accelerated video even when the video card on the Mac has the same chip set as the video card one might wish to emulate on the PC.

That's because when it's running on PPC hardware, VPC has to emulate a complete computer, including an x86 CPU. VPC would also have to do some funky smurf to access hardware, because the underlying architecture is so completely different. When compiled for x86 and running on a Macintel, VPC will operate pretty much without a speed hit at all, since it doesn't have to emulate any hardware. Also, you're forgetting that a GPU plugged into a mac is using a different ROM. It has to, in order to interface with the different equipment. That's why VPC doesn't use them - windows couldn't tell a mac video card from a modem becaus the video card ROM might as well be in greek. This is also why when we install PC Radeon cards in our Macs, we have to flash the ROMs first.

Rather than emulating the hardware of an intel pc like it does now, Macintel VPC will be a framework that allows windows to run at the same time the macos is running. Lots less overhead, and much better compatibility.

I am continually amused by the people who are so ignorant that they think all PC hardware is cheap crap but somehow Apples HW is magically perfect.

Wake up and smell the solder-Macs are constructed almost eniterly from off the shelf PC parts now and after the switch it will be even more generic.

Tom_N wrote:

assassin_bill wrote:

Considering it will all be x86... emulation should be easy and painless with minimal overhead...

Emulation of what?  Emulation of the video hardware that Mac OS X supports, using different video hardware?

Hmmm...I notice that Microsoft's Virtual PC emulates an x86 CPU but does not attempt to emulate accelerated video cards.  As far as I know, it doesn't support accelerated video even when the video card on the Mac has the same chip set as the video card one might wish to emulate on the PC.

You have a tough time with verb tenses don't you. I was refering to OS X x86 binaries... read the peirces thread

TheConfuzed1 wrote:

I was thinking about this while I was working out in the yard today...

Does this mean that we will be able to upgrade the machines that we have now, to an Intel processor once they become available?

No.

it's not possible. The current motherboard is designed for the PPC processor.

Hell, it's not even possible on the x86 side. You can't even stick different brands of CPU in different motherboards--no, it goes even lower than that. You can't even stick different modelsof, say, Intel CPUs in the same motherboard.

The CPUs are physically different, as well as the motherboards have to be designed for one of the two architectures. It is impossible to just drop-in a x86 into a Mac and it just work. It's physically impossible, for starters.

DJ LUCiTE wrote:

it's not possible. The current motherboard is designed for the PPC processor.

Hell, it's not even possible on the x86 side. You can't even stick different brands of CPU in different motherboards--no, it goes even lower than that. You can't even stick different modelsof, say, Intel CPUs in the same motherboard.

The CPUs are physically different, as well as the motherboards have to be designed for one of the two architectures. It is impossible to just drop-in a x86 into a Mac and it just work. It's physically impossible, for starters.

How is it then, that a company like Sonnet can come along and sell a bolt on procesor upgrade that will take you from G3 to G4 or G5?

Couldn't something similar be developed, or even a PCI card with an Intel processor?

Last edited by TheConfuzed1 (2005-06-10 9:46 pm)

Apple will prolly have smurf package the suckers in a BGA to make it a real bitch to do any upgrade...

assassin_bill wrote:

Apple will prolly have smurf package the suckers in a BGA to make it a real bitch to do any upgrade...

I don't think Intel will do that for them. I think Apple's gonna have to buy the same chips that everyone else is using...

Gipetto wrote:

So, basically, there will be no way to take a PPC Mac and make it an Intel Mac - they're just not set up for it.

There's one:  motherboard upgrade.  Trouble is, Apple will probably be looking to sell all-new machines -- most of the stuff except the HD, the optical drive, and the display is integrated on the MB.  Also, as I recall, the 68K => PowerPC motherboard upgrades that Apple sold were not all that cheap.

dvpierce wrote:

That's because when it's running on PPC hardware, VPC has to emulate a complete computer, including an x86 CPU. VPC would also have to do some funky smurf to access hardware, because the underlying architecture is so completely different. When compiled for x86 and running on a Macintel, VPC will operate pretty much without a speed hit at all, since it doesn't have to emulate any hardware. Also, you're forgetting that a GPU plugged into a mac is using a different ROM. It has to, in order to interface with the different equipment. That's why VPC doesn't use them - windows couldn't tell a mac video card from a modem becaus the video card ROM might as well be in greek. This is also why when we install PC Radeon cards in our Macs, we have to flash the ROMs first.

Rather than emulating the hardware of an intel pc like it does now, Macintel VPC will be a framework that allows windows to run at the same time the macos is running. Lots less overhead, and much better compatibility.

This isn't about VPC.  I was bringing its lack of GPU emulation in as an example for the crowd who was saying "if Apple doesn't support all of the possible combinations of PC clone cards on an Intel Mac, we'll just pirate Mac OS X and install it on clone PCs built however we like."

That's not going to fly.  Even ignoring whatever Apple does to lock the OS to real Mac hardware, Mac OS X is not going to be qualified against every possible combination of (possibly-buggy) PC hardware.

Another consideration is driver APIs: just because PCs and Intel Macs both use x86 CPUs doesn't mean that the OS APIs for graphics card drivers will be the same.  If MacOS X is running native, Windows drivers won't do MacOS X any good.  If MacOS X is running over top of Linux or Windows in some sort of virtual x86 environment that emulates a GPU that has a MacOS X driver, then you have the whole [virtual] GPU1 => [real] GPU2 issue: the one VPC solved by punting!

Then there's the aethestic argument:  that anyone who would even think of running MacOS X on a Packard Bell or eMachines box shouldn't be allowed to own a computer.  :-)

I agree that VPC for MacOS/Intel should be much faster than current emulators -- the only CPU instructions you'd need to trap and emulate are the privileged-mode ones.  And hopefully we'll see some way to pass 3D video acceleration through as well -- otherwise, gamers will still need to dual-boot.

misterboo wrote:

I think allowing people to randomly 'upgrade' by ramming random third party 5h1t into their machine will be a surefire way of reducing the mac into a miserable headache machine and make it just as painful and frustrating to own as a windows PooCee.

  Less choice is good and is one of Apple's strengths and is a massive contributing factor to it being such a reliable platform.

  Too much random crap made by too many random crappy companies causes too many problems.  Blah.  Screw it all.

Leave modding to the rice racer boys.

Thats what the big "Warranty Void if Removed" stickers are for man.

I don't give a rip if some moron has a bad experience because they trashed their freakin' system. Thats THEIR PROBLEM and not Apples.

  It would be nice for those of us who know enough about how the smurf works to be able to do some tinkering and have some upgrade options at going market rates. I'm all for it.

Pariah wrote:

Tom_N wrote:

Pariah wrote:

I am continually amused by the people who are so ignorant that they think all PC hardware is cheap crap but somehow Apples HW is magically perfect.

I'm amused at strawman attacks and ad homenim insults.  There is a higher level of quality in, say, the PowerMac G5 design than in the designs of typical "big box" retail store PCs.

Puhleezze..
I worked as a Mac repair tech at an authorised Apple reseller for 2 years.
Macs stopped having significantly higher quality parts when when the Blue and White G3s came out. I wont even go into the first iMacs, thats just to ugly for words.
Sure, you can go out and buy a crap PC, but its just as easy to spec good parts.
Mayhaps you should go to ARS Technica and look over their system guides.

Just 1 qusetion, Why do Macs last longer then PC Boxes?
You would think, if as you say at the time when the B&W G3's came out Apple was not using Higher quality parts anymore, Then why does the Mac not brake down as fast as PC's (hardware wise)?

I don't even want to talk about software thats just too ugly for words.

Last edited by Ceemkm (2005-06-11 12:05 pm)