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#176 2005-07-03 1:11 pm

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Chicken Little
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Re: Evolution is a "fairy tale"...

Pro_ wrote:

...  every fossil is an intermediate fossil, every animal is an intermediate life form.

That's the latest intellectual horse meneur to try and talk around it.
You can just as easily say every fossil is a distinct created species. Use your reasoning skills to see past the propoganda.

Evolution claims a continuum of species - thus they need to show a continuum.

To claim every species is an intermediary and thus we have them is intellectually dishonest. You need to state points of reference, A and B - and show the intermediate species between A and B.

That's what intermediary means - between two points of reference.

The fact that this is the second time I've had to explain this is troublesome.

Last edited by resedit (2005-07-03 1:13 pm)


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#177 2005-07-03 1:15 pm

Pro_
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Re: Evolution is a "fairy tale"...

The evidence is presented in the second link, i was even kind enough to give you the correct anchor, now if you would tell me how the theory was not tested, I am all ears.


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#178 2005-07-03 1:37 pm

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Chicken Little
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Re: Evolution is a "fairy tale"...

Pro_ wrote:

The evidence is presented in the second link, i was even kind enough to give you the correct anchor, now if you would tell me how the theory was not tested, I am all ears.

The word apparently showed up more than once - they demonstrated that there are some animals that had features common to reptiles and amphibians, etc.

They did not show intermediary species, but rather, quite drastic jumps.


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#179 2005-07-03 1:51 pm

Pro_
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Re: Evolution is a "fairy tale"...

Early Reptiles
Early Mammals


1     No fenestrae in skull
Massive fenestra exposes all of braincase

2     Braincase attached loosely
Braincase attached firmly to skull

3     No secondary palate
Complete bony secondary palate

4     Undifferentiated dentition
Incisors, canines, premolars, molars

5     Cheek teeth uncrowned points
Cheek teeth (PM & M) crowned & cusped

6     Teeth replaced continuously
Teeth replaced once at most

7     Teeth with single root
Molars double-rooted

8     Jaw joint quadrate-articular
Jaw joint dentary-squamosal (*)

9     Lower jaw of several bones
Lower jaw of dentary bone only

10     Single ear bone (stapes)
Three ear bones (stapes, incus, malleus)

11     Joined external nares
Separate external nares

12     Single occipital condyle
Double occipital condyle

13     Long cervical ribs
Cervical ribs tiny, fused to vertebrae

14     Lumbar region with ribs
Lumbar region rib-free

15     No diaphragm
Diaphragm

16     Limbs sprawled out from body
Limbs under body

17     Scapula simple
Scapula with big spine for muscles

18     Pelvic bones unfused
Pelvis fused

19     Two sacral (hip) vertebrae
Three or more sacral vertebrae

20     Toe bone #'s 2-3-4-5-4
Toe bones 2-3-3-3-3

21     Body temperature variable
Body temperature constant

(*) The presence of a dentary-squamosal jaw joint has been arbitrarily selected as the defining trait of a mammal.

    * Paleothyris (early Pennsylvanian) -- An early captorhinomorph reptile, with no temporal fenestrae at all.
    * Protoclepsydrops haplous (early Pennsylvanian) -- The earliest known synapsid reptile. Little temporal fenestra, with all surrounding bones intact. Fragmentary. Had amphibian-type vertebrae with tiny neural processes. (reptiles had only just separated from the amphibians)
    * Clepsydrops (early Pennsylvanian) -- The second earliest known synapsid. These early, very primitive synapsids are a primitive group of pelycosaurs collectively called "ophiacodonts".
    * Archaeothyris (early-mid Pennsylvanian) -- A slightly later ophiacodont. Small temporal fenestra, now with some reduced bones (supratemporal). Braincase still just loosely attached to skull. Slight hint of different tooth types. Still has some extremely primitive, amphibian/captorhinid features in the jaw, foot, and skull. Limbs, posture, etc. typically reptilian, though the ilium (major hip bone) was slightly enlarged.
    * Varanops (early Permian) -- Temporal fenestra further enlarged. Braincase floor shows first mammalian tendencies & first signs of stronger attachment to rest of skull (occiput more strongly attached). Lower jaw shows first changes in jaw musculature (slight coronoid eminence). Body narrower, deeper: vertebral column more strongly constructed. Ilium further enlarged, lower-limb musculature starts to change (prominent fourth trochanter on femur). This animal was more mobile and active. Too late to be a true ancestor, and must be a "cousin".
    * Haptodus (late Pennsylvanian) -- One of the first known sphenacodonts, showing the initiation of sphenacodont features while retaining many primitive features of the ophiacodonts. Occiput still more strongly attached to the braincase. Teeth become size-differentiated, with biggest teeth in canine region and fewer teeth overall. Stronger jaw muscles. Vertebrae parts & joints more mammalian. Neural spines on vertebrae longer. Hip strengthened by fusing to three sacral vertebrae instead of just two. Limbs very well developed.
    * Dimetrodon, Sphenacodon or a similar sphenacodont (late Pennsylvanian to early Permian, 270 Ma) -- More advanced pelycosaurs, clearly closely related to the first therapsids (next). Dimetrodon is almost definitely a "cousin" and not a direct ancestor, but as it is known from very complete fossils, it's a good model for sphenacodont anatomy. Medium-sized fenestra. Teeth further differentiated, with small incisors, two huge deep- rooted upper canines on each side, followed by smaller cheek teeth, all replaced continuously. Fully reptilian jaw hinge. Lower jaw bone made of multiple bones & with first signs of a bony prong later involved in the eardrum, but there was no eardrum yet, so these reptiles could only hear ground-borne vibrations (they did have a reptilian middle ear). Vertebrae had still longer neural spines (spectacularly so in Dimetrodon, which had a sail), and longer transverse spines for stronger locomotion muscles.
    * Biarmosuchia (late Permian) -- A therocephalian -- one of the earliest, most primitive therapsids. Several primitive, sphenacodontid features retained: jaw muscles inside the skull, platelike occiput, palatal teeth. New features: Temporal fenestra further enlarged, occupying virtually all of the cheek, with the supratemporal bone completely gone. Occipital plate slanted slightly backwards rather than forwards as in pelycosaurs, and attached still more strongly to the braincase. Upper jaw bone (maxillary) expanded to separate lacrymal from nasal bones, intermediate between early reptiles and later mammals. Still no secondary palate, but the vomer bones of the palate developed a backward extension below the palatine bones. This is the first step toward a secondary palate, and with exactly the same pattern seen in cynodonts. Canine teeth larger, dominating the dentition. Variable tooth replacement: some therocephalians (e.g Scylacosaurus) had just one canine, like mammals, and stopped replacing the canine after reaching adult size. Jaw hinge more mammalian in position and shape, jaw musculature stronger (especially the mammalian jaw muscle). The amphibian-like hinged upper jaw finally became immovable. Vertebrae still sphenacodontid-like. Radical alteration in the method of locomotion, with a much more mobile forelimb, more upright hindlimb, & more mammalian femur & pelvis. Primitive sphenacodontid humerus. The toes were approaching equal length, as in mammals, with #toe bones varying from reptilian to mammalian. The neck & tail vertebrae became distinctly different from trunk vertebrae. Probably had an eardrum in the lower jaw, by the jaw hinge.
    * Procynosuchus (latest Permian) -- The first known cynodont -- a famous group of very mammal-like therapsid reptiles, sometimes considered to be the first mammals. Probably arose from the therocephalians, judging from the distinctive secondary palate and numerous other skull characters. Enormous temporal fossae for very strong jaw muscles, formed by just one of the reptilian jaw muscles, which has now become the mammalian masseter. The large fossae is now bounded only by the thin zygomatic arch (cheekbone to you & me). Secondary palate now composed mainly of palatine bones (mammalian), rather than vomers and maxilla as in older forms; it's still only a partial bony palate (completed in life with soft tissue). Lower incisor teeth was reduced to four (per side), instead of the previous six (early mammals had three). Dentary now is 3/4 of lower jaw; the other bones are now a small complex near the jaw hinge. Jaw hinge still reptilian. Vertebral column starts to look mammalian: first two vertebrae modified for head movements, and lumbar vertebrae start to lose ribs, the first sign of functional division into thoracic and lumbar regions. Scapula beginning to change shape. Further enlargement of the ilium and reduction of the pubis in the hip. A diaphragm may have been present.
    * Dvinia [also "Permocynodon"] (latest Permian) -- Another early cynodont. First signs of teeth that are more than simple stabbing points -- cheek teeth develop a tiny cusp. The temporal fenestra increased still further. Various changes in the floor of the braincase; enlarged brain. The dentary bone was now the major bone of the lower jaw. The other jaw bones that had been present in early reptiles were reduced to a complex of smaller bones near the jaw hinge. Single occipital condyle splitting into two surfaces. The postcranial skeleton of Dvinia is virtually unknown and it is not therefore certain whether the typical features found at the next level had already evolved by this one. Metabolic rate was probably increased, at least approaching homeothermy.
    * Thrinaxodon (early Triassic) -- A more advanced "galesaurid" cynodont. Further development of several of the cynodont features seen already. Temporal fenestra still larger, larger jaw muscle attachments. Bony secondary palate almost complete. Functional division of teeth: incisors (four uppers and three lowers), canines, and then 7-9 cheek teeth with cusps for chewing. The cheek teeth were all alike, though (no premolars & molars), did not occlude together, were all single- rooted, and were replaced throughout life in alternate waves. Dentary still larger, with the little quadrate and articular bones were loosely attached. The stapes now touched the inner side of the quadrate. First sign of the mammalian jaw hinge, a ligamentous connection between the lower jaw and the squamosal bone of the skull. The occipital condyle is now two slightly separated surfaces, though not separated as far as the mammalian double condyles. Vertebral connections more mammalian, and lumbar ribs reduced. Scapula shows development of a new mammalian shoulder muscle. Ilium increased again, and all four legs fully upright, not sprawling. Tail short, as is necessary for agile quadrupedal locomotion. The whole locomotion was more agile. Number of toe bones is 2.3.4.4.3, intermediate between reptile number (2.3.4.5.4) and mammalian (2.3.3.3.3), and the "extra" toe bones were tiny. Nearly complete skeletons of these animals have been found curled up - a possible reaction to conserve heat, indicating possible endothermy? Adults and juveniles have been found together, possibly a sign of parental care. The specialization of the lumbar area (e.g. reduction of ribs) is indicative of the presence of a diaphragm, needed for higher O2 intake and homeothermy. NOTE on hearing: The eardrum had developed in the only place available for it -- the lower jaw, right near the jaw hinge, supported by a wide prong (reflected lamina) of the angular bone. These animals could now hear airborne sound, transmitted through the eardrum to two small lower jaw bones, the articular and the quadrate, which contacted the stapes in the skull, which contacted the cochlea. Rather a roundabout system and sensitive to low-frequency sound only, but better than no eardrum at all! Cynodonts developed quite loose quadrates and articulars that could vibrate freely for sound transmittal while still functioning as a jaw joint, strengthened by the mammalian jaw joint right next to it. All early mammals from the Lower Jurassic have this low-frequency ear and a double jaw joint. By the middle Jurassic, mammals lost the reptilian joint (though it still occurs briefly in embryos) and the two bones moved into the nearby middle ear, became smaller, and became much more sensitive to high-frequency sounds.
    * Cynognathus (early Triassic, 240 Ma; suspected to have existed even earlier) -- We're now at advanced cynodont level. Temporal fenestra larger. Teeth differentiating further; cheek teeth with cusps met in true occlusion for slicing up food, rate of replacement reduced, with mammalian-style tooth roots (though single roots). Dentary still larger, forming 90% of the muscle-bearing part of the lower jaw. TWO JAW JOINTS in place, mammalian and reptilian: A new bony jaw joint existed between the squamosal (skull) and the surangular bone (lower jaw), while the other jaw joint bones were reduced to a compound rod lying in a trough in the dentary, close to the middle ear. Ribs more mammalian. Scapula halfway to the mammalian condition. Limbs were held under body. There is possible evidence for fur in fossil pawprints.
    * Diademodon (early Triassic, 240 Ma; same strata as Cynognathus) -- Temporal fenestra larger still, for still stronger jaw muscles. True bony secondary palate formed exactly as in mammals, but didn't extend quite as far back. Turbinate bones possibly present in the nose (warm-blooded?). Dental changes continue: rate of tooth replacement had decreased, cheek teeth have better cusps & consistent wear facets (better occlusion). Lower jaw almost entirely dentary, with tiny articular at the hinge. Still a double jaw joint. Ribs shorten suddenly in lumbar region, probably improving diaphragm function & locomotion. Mammalian toe bones (2.3.3.3.3), with closely related species still showing variable numbers.
    * Probelesodon (mid-Triassic; South America) -- Fenestra very large, still separate from eyesocket (with postorbital bar). Secondary palate longer, but still not complete. Teeth double-rooted, as in mammals. Nares separated. Second jaw joint stronger. Lumbar ribs totally lost; thoracic ribs more mammalian, vertebral connections very mammalian. Hip & femur more mammalian.
    * Probainognathus (mid-Triassic, 239-235 Ma, Argentina) -- Larger brain with various skull changes: pineal foramen ("third eye") closes, fusion of some skull plates. Cheekbone slender, low down on the side of the eye socket. Postorbital bar still there. Additional cusps on cheek teeth. Still two jaw joints. Still had cervical ribs & lumbar ribs, but they were very short. Reptilian "costal plates" on thoracic ribs mostly lost. Mammalian #toe bones.
    * Exaeretodon (mid-late Triassic, 239Ma, South America) -- (Formerly lumped with the herbivorous gomphodont cynodonts.) Mammalian jaw prong forms, related to eardrum support. Three incisors only (mammalian). Costal plates completely lost. More mammalian hip related to having limbs under the body. Possibly the first steps toward coupling of locomotion & breathing. This is probably a "cousin" fossil not directly ancestral, as it has several new but non-mammalian teeth traits.

GAP of about 30 my in the late Triassic, from about 239-208 Ma. Only one early mammal fossil is known from this time. The next time fossils are found in any abundance, tritylodontids and trithelodontids had already appeared, leading to some very heated controversy about their relative placement in the chain to mammals. Recent discoveries seem to show trithelodontids to be more mammal- like, with tritylodontids possibly being an offshoot group (see Hopson 1991, Rowe 1988, Wible 1991, and Shubin et al. 1991). Bear in mind that both these groups were almost fully mammalian in every feature, lacking only the final changes in the jaw joint and middle ear.

    * Oligokyphus, Kayentatherium (early Jurassic, 208 Ma) -- These are tritylodontids, an advanced cynodont group. Face more mammalian, with changes around eyesocket and cheekbone. Full bony secondary palate. Alternate tooth replacement with double-rooted cheek teeth, but without mammalian-style tooth occlusion (which some earlier cynodonts already had). Skeleton strikingly like egg- laying mammals (monotremes). Double jaw joint. More flexible neck, with mammalian atlas & axis and double occipital condyle. Tail vertebrae simpler, like mammals. Scapula is now substantially mammalian, and the forelimb is carried directly under the body. Various changes in the pelvis bones and hind limb muscles; this animal's limb musculature and locomotion were virtually fully mammalian. Probably cousin fossils (?), with Oligokyphus being more primitive than Kayentatherium. Thought to have diverged from the trithelodontids during that gap in the late Triassic. There is disagreement about whether the tritylodontids were ancestral to mammals (presumably during the late Triassic gap) or whether they are a specialized offshoot group not directly ancestral to mammals.
    * Pachygenelus, Diarthrognathus (earliest Jurassic, 209 Ma) -- These are trithelodontids, a slightly different advanced cynodont group. New discoveries (Shubin et al., 1991) show that these animals are very close to the ancestry of mammals. Inflation of nasal cavity, establishment of Eustachian tubes between ear and pharynx, loss of postorbital bar. Alternate replacement of mostly single- rooted teeth. This group also began to develop double tooth roots -- in Pachygenelus the single root of the cheek teeth begins to split in two at the base. Pachygenelus also has mammalian tooth enamel, and mammalian tooth occlusion. Double jaw joint, with the second joint now a dentary-squamosal (instead of surangular), fully mammalian. Incipient dentary condyle. Reptilian jaw joint still present but functioning almost entirely in hearing; postdentary bones further reduced to tiny rod of bones in jaw near middle ear; probably could hear high frequencies now. More mammalian neck vertebrae for a flexible neck. Hip more mammalian, with a very mammalian iliac blade & femur. Highly mobile, mammalian-style shoulder. Probably had coupled locomotion & breathing. These are probably "cousin" fossils, not directly ancestral (the true ancestor is thought to have occurred during that late Triassic gap). Pachygenelus is pretty close, though.
    * Adelobasileus cromptoni (late Triassic; 225 Ma, west Texas) -- A recently discovered fossil proto-mammal from right in the middle of that late Triassic gap! Currently the oldest known "mammal." Only the skull was found. "Some cranial features of Adelobasileus, such as the incipient promontorium housing the cochlea, represent an intermediate stage of the character transformation from non-mammalian cynodonts to Liassic mammals" (Lucas & Luo, 1993). This fossil was found from a band of strata in the western U.S. that had not previously been studied for early mammals. Also note that this fossil dates from slightly before the known tritylodonts and trithelodonts, though it has long been suspected that tritilodonts and trithelodonts were already around by then. Adelobasileus is thought to have split off from either a trityl. or a trithel., and is either identical to or closely related to the common ancestor of all mammals.
    * Sinoconodon (early Jurassic, 208 Ma) -- The next known very ancient proto-mammal. Eyesocket fully mammalian now (closed medial wall). Hindbrain expanded. Permanent cheekteeth, like mammals, but the other teeth were still replaced several times. Mammalian jaw joint stronger, with large dentary condyle fitting into a distinct fossa on the squamosal. This final refinement of the joint automatically makes this animal a true "mammal". Reptilian jaw joint still present, though tiny.
    * Kuehneotherium (early Jurassic, about 205 Ma) -- A slightly later proto-mammal, sometimes considered the first known pantothere (primitive placental-type mammal). Teeth and skull like a placental mammal. The three major cusps on the upper & lower molars were rotated to form interlocking shearing triangles as in the more advanced placental mammals & marsupials. Still has a double jaw joint, though.
    * Eozostrodon, Morganucodon, Haldanodon (early Jurassic, ~205 Ma) -- A group of early proto-mammals called "morganucodonts". The restructuring of the secondary palate and the floor of the braincase had continued, and was now very mammalian. Truly mammalian teeth: the cheek teeth were finally differentiated into simple premolars and more complex molars, and teeth were replaced only once. Triangular- cusped molars. Reversal of the previous trend toward reduced incisors, with lower incisors increasing to four. Tiny remnant of the reptilian jaw joint. Once thought to be ancestral to monotremes only, but now thought to be ancestral to all three groups of modern mammals -- monotremes, marsupials, and placentals.
    * Peramus (late Jurassic, about 155 Ma) -- A "eupantothere" (more advanced placental-type mammal). The closest known relative of the placentals & marsupials. Triconodont molar has with more defined cusps. This fossil is known only from teeth, but judging from closely related eupantotheres (e.g. Amphitherium) it had finally lost the reptilian jaw joint, attaing a fully mammalian three-boned middle ear with excellent high-frequency hearing. Has only 8 cheek teeth, less than other eupantotheres and close to the 7 of the first placental mammals. Also has a large talonid on its "tribosphenic" molars, almost as large as that of the first placentals -- the first development of grinding capability.
    * Endotherium (very latest Jurassic, 147 Ma) -- An advanced eupantothere. Fully tribosphenic molars with a well- developed talonid. Known only from one specimen. From Asia; recent fossil finds in Asia suggest that the tribosphenic molar evolved there.
    * Kielantherium and Aegialodon (early Cretaceous) -- More advanced eupantotheres known only from teeth. Kielantherium is from Asia and is known from slightly older strata than the European Aegialodon. Both have the talonid on the lower molars. The wear on it indicates that a major new cusp, the protocone, had evolved on the upper molars. By the Middle Cretaceous, animals with the new tribosphenic molar had spread into North America too (North America was still connected to Europe.)
    * Steropodon galmani (early Cretaceous) -- The first known definite monotreme, discovered in 1985.
    * Vincelestes neuquenianus (early Cretaceous, 135 Ma) -- A probably-placental mammal with some marsupial traits, known from some nice skulls. Placental-type braincase and coiled cochlea. Its intracranial arteries & veins ran in a composite monotreme/placental pattern derived from homologous extracranial vessels in the cynodonts. (Rougier et al., 1992)
    * Pariadens kirklandi (late Cretaceous, about 95 Ma) -- The first definite marsupial. Known only from teeth.
    * Kennalestes and Asioryctes (late Cretaceous, Mongolia) -- Small, slender animals; eyesocket open behind; simple ring to support eardrum; primitive placental-type brain with large olfactory bulbs; basic primitive tribosphenic tooth pattern. Canine now double rooted. Still just a trace of a non-dentary bone, the coronoid, on the otherwise all-dentary jaw. "Could have given rise to nearly all subsequent placentals." says Carroll (1988).
    * Cimolestes, Procerberus, Gypsonictops (very late Cretaceous) -- Primitive North American placentals with same basic tooth pattern.


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#180 2005-07-03 1:54 pm

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Re: Evolution is a "fairy tale"...

this shows a genus level continum between mammals and reptiles, this continum should not exist because mammals are apparently a different 'kind' than reptiles.


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#181 2005-07-03 2:31 pm

resedit
Chicken Little
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Re: Evolution is a "fairy tale"...

Your link was sufficient.
Please do not quote entire articles in a post.

It shows drastic jumps, and for the record - not even all evolutionists agree the reptile to mammal tree follows what is proposed in that article - which does not detail any of the problems in the tree, it ignores them (which is not unbiased as science should be) - which is to be blundt, typical of stuff at talkorigins.


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#182 2005-07-03 6:37 pm

Metacell
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Re: Evolution is a "fairy tale"...

Once any actual physical scientists enter these threads, they all end the same way.  Its easy to argue against evolution to laypeople who haven't actually seen the evidence.  Journals presented for public consumption DO often present assumptions and simplifications, but in fact the scientific evidence is based on MILLIONS of precise measurements and comparisons between many lifetimes worth of discovered samples.  Statistically, evolution has been proven. In the lab it has been proven possible. DRASTIC morphological change in species has been seen in the wild. Hot-box genes are completely capable of adding completely different features to an organism on a mechanical level. Why does the existence of evolution diminish the potency of God for you? For me it elevates it far beyond the humanocentrism of creationism.

Last edited by Metacell (2005-07-03 6:39 pm)


Ho Eyo He Hum

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#183 2005-07-03 7:35 pm

resedit
Chicken Little
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Re: Evolution is a "fairy tale"...

Metacell wrote:

Once any actual physical scientists enter these threads, they all end the same way.  Its easy to argue against evolution to laypeople who haven't actually seen the evidence.  Journals presented for public consumption DO often present assumptions and simplifications, but in fact the scientific evidence is based on MILLIONS of precise measurements and comparisons between many lifetimes worth of discovered samples.  Statistically, evolution has been proven. In the lab it has been proven possible. DRASTIC morphological change in species has been seen in the wild. Hot-box genes are completely capable of adding completely different features to an organism on a mechanical level. Why does the existence of evolution diminish the potency of God for you? For me it elevates it far beyond the humanocentrism of creationism.

And there are many prominent "physical scientists" who disagree with your assesment - from very good schools who are well respected in their fields.

I'm sorry, but it IS intellectually dishonest to claim any kind of s consensus amongs "physical scientists".


In her right hand Jenny held the Bible of her mother
Jenny had a pistol in the other
-- Steve Taylor

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#184 2005-07-03 10:20 pm

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Re: Evolution is a "fairy tale"...

resedit wrote:

Metacell wrote:

Once any actual physical scientists enter these threads, they all end the same way.  Its easy to argue against evolution to laypeople who haven't actually seen the evidence.  Journals presented for public consumption DO often present assumptions and simplifications, but in fact the scientific evidence is based on MILLIONS of precise measurements and comparisons between many lifetimes worth of discovered samples.  Statistically, evolution has been proven. In the lab it has been proven possible. DRASTIC morphological change in species has been seen in the wild. Hot-box genes are completely capable of adding completely different features to an organism on a mechanical level. Why does the existence of evolution diminish the potency of God for you? For me it elevates it far beyond the humanocentrism of creationism.

And there are many prominent "physical scientists" who disagree with your assesment - from very good schools who are well respected in their fields.

I'm sorry, but it IS intellectually dishonest to claim any kind of s consensus amongs "physical scientists".

Who?


Aw, he's no fun, he fell right over.

Unless you become as little children, there's no way you will believe this crap.

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#185 2005-07-04 1:06 am

Metacell
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Re: Evolution is a "fairy tale"...

resedit wrote:

Metacell wrote:

Once any actual physical scientists enter these threads, they all end the same way.  Its easy to argue against evolution to laypeople who haven't actually seen the evidence.  Journals presented for public consumption DO often present assumptions and simplifications, but in fact the scientific evidence is based on MILLIONS of precise measurements and comparisons between many lifetimes worth of discovered samples.  Statistically, evolution has been proven. In the lab it has been proven possible. DRASTIC morphological change in species has been seen in the wild. Hot-box genes are completely capable of adding completely different features to an organism on a mechanical level. Why does the existence of evolution diminish the potency of God for you? For me it elevates it far beyond the humanocentrism of creationism.

And there are many prominent "physical scientists" who disagree with your assesment - from very good schools who are well respected in their fields.

I'm sorry, but it IS intellectually dishonest to claim any kind of s consensus amongs "physical scientists".

No there are not many, and most scientists who support creationism and ID are known frauds.  Many are not accreditted with legitimate degrees at all.  But most importantly, their work is not taken seriously in the scientific community by and large, because it is complete unadulterated bullsh!t.


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#186 2005-07-04 10:18 am

jerwin
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Re: Evolution is a "fairy tale"...

Why should phenotypic variation be continuous? It is the gene that counts.


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#187 2005-07-05 2:52 am

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Re: Evolution is a "fairy tale"...

There is no science, only (mostly) guesswork. (at least in this field of 'science').

Anyway's (Human settlers made it to the Americas 30,000 years earlier than previously thought, according to new evidence.):
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4650307.stm

It was science that the currently accepted theory is that the continent's early inhabitants arrived 12,500 years ago, by crossing a land bridge between Siberia and Alaska.

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#188 2005-07-05 5:31 am

jerwin
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Registered: 2003-01-01
Posts: 7093

Re: Evolution is a "fairy tale"...

More here.

It was science that the currently accepted theory is that the continent's early inhabitants arrived 12,500 years ago, by crossing a land bridge between Siberia and Alaska.

Shall we compromise between superstition and reason, then?


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Central Intelligence Agency. (1983). Human Resource Exploitation Training Manual

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#189 2005-07-05 6:51 pm

Metacell
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From: The space between the spaces
Registered: 2005-03-19
Posts: 5864
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Re: Evolution is a "fairy tale"...

The existence of the Clovis people in America some 20,000 years ago has been known for some time.  "The accepted theory" in this case does not have a lot of physical evidence to go on.  In Native American Anthropology class they taught a great number of theories, generally concluding there were at least 3 major waves of migration.


Ho Eyo He Hum

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#190 2005-07-05 7:45 pm

SpacemanSpiff
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From: Transmogrifier
Registered: 2001-07-31
Posts: 5536

Re: Evolution is a "fairy tale"...

Metacell wrote:

The existence of the Clovis people in America some 20,000 years ago has been known for some time.  "The accepted theory" in this case does not have a lot of physical evidence to go on.  In Native American Anthropology class they taught a great number of theories, generally concluding there were at least 3 major waves of migration.

The Nina, Pinta and the Santa Maria...


"The first time one sees natural beauty which is privately owned; oceans as people's back yards, confounds the senses.  I didn't know God had a a toy store for the rich." -- Spanglish
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#191 2005-07-05 7:50 pm

Ribtorus
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Registered: 2002-07-11
Posts: 13758

Re: Evolution is a "fairy tale"...

They found a new species of Dolphin off Australia.

Is this a newly formed offshoot, or has it been swimming around the oceans since the flood and went unnoticed?


when surrounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
and the women come out to cut up what remains,
just roll to your rifle and blow out your brains,
and go to your god like a soldier...

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#192 2005-07-06 2:45 am

Metacell
misanthropist
From: The space between the spaces
Registered: 2005-03-19
Posts: 5864
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Re: Evolution is a "fairy tale"...

Are you sure it wasn't a wolphin? (no joke)


Ho Eyo He Hum

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#193 2005-07-06 2:50 am

resedit
Chicken Little
Royal Wombat
From: /dev/null
Registered: 1999-11-01
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Re: Evolution is a "fairy tale"...

Ribtorus wrote:

They found a new species of Dolphin off Australia.

Is this a newly formed offshoot, or has it been swimming around the oceans since the flood and went unnoticed?

Why would it be newly formed just because we haven't recorded it before?
There are plenty of species that went extinct millions of years ago that suddenly turn up - and not just creatures that live in the bottom of the ocean, a species of redwood tree that grows in China was also supposedly extinct before our time - until they found it.


In her right hand Jenny held the Bible of her mother
Jenny had a pistol in the other
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#194 2005-07-06 8:01 am

jerwin
Sophist
From: The Garden of Pure Ideology
Registered: 2003-01-01
Posts: 7093

Re: Evolution is a "fairy tale"...

Perhaps too much has been read into this paper.  Previously, the australian snubfin dolphin population was thought to be composed of  Irrawaddy dolphins who had migrated from Cambodia and Vietnam. The new paper demonstrates that the Australian snubfin population is genetically and morphologically distinct.

Abstract

Comparisons of the Irrawaddy dolphin, Orcaella brevirostris, between Australian and Asian sites documented geographic differences in height of dorsal fin, presence or absence of a median dorsal groove in front of the dorsal fin, and coloration (presence or absence of a dorsal cape). Analysis of genetic data provided support for two clades within the Asian samples, the Mekong River samples from Cambodia and southern Laos, and all other marine and freshwater sites from Thailand, Indonesia, and the Philippines. The major separation, however, was between sites in Asia and those from Australia (5.9% of base pair differences, compared with 1.2% for within Australia and 1.5% for within Asia). Within a 403 base segment of the mtDNA control region, Australian specimens had 17 diagnostic sites with 16 fixed base pair differences and one insertion/deletion. Consistent, statistically significant differences in skull characters of Australian specimens have previously been demonstrated and are reviewed in this paper. There was a high concordance in character differences demonstrated between O. brevirostris from all Asian sites and Australian specimens, especially in the genetic and osteological characters. Based on the range and concordance of character differences, we propose that the Australian dolphins be recognized as a new species, Orcaella heinsohni (suggested common name: Australian snubfin dolphin).

[url=http://apt.allenpress.com/aptonline/?request=get-abstract&issn=0824-0469&volume=021&issue=03&page=0365]Isabel Beasley, Kelly M. Robertson, and Peter Arnold. (2005) "Description of a new Dolphin, the Australian Snubfin Dolphin, Orcaella heinsohni. Sp. N. (Cetacea, Delphinidae)" Marine Mammal Science: 21(3):365


Some subjects actually enjoy pain, and withhold information they might otherwise have divulged in order to be punished.
Central Intelligence Agency. (1983). Human Resource Exploitation Training Manual

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