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I am astounded no wait DUMBFOUNDED at how we can take a modern issue like Iraq or modern politics in general and anyone who questions anything the government is doing is considered a traitor but somehow flying the flag of true 'enemies of the state' is somehow okay. smurfing insane!  Seriously, if it's okay to fly the confederate flag does that mean we can fly a Nazi flag or hang banners symbolizing Al Quaeda? It DOESN'T MATTER what led to the decision, once a group decides to defect and wage war it is the enemy. Robert B couldn't have said it any more clearly. Do the British fly the American flag over Buckingham Palace? Do they sing The Star Spangled Banner at Parliment? No, they don't. Friggin' ridiculous...

Last edited by jax (2005-07-07 7:06 pm)

jax wrote:

I am astounded no wait DUMBFOUNDED at how we can take a modern issue like Iraq or modern politics in general and anyone who questions anything the government is doing is considered a traitor but somehow flying the flag of true 'enemies of the state' is somehow okay. smurfing insane!  Seriously, if it's okay to fly the confederate flag does that mean we can fly a Nazi flag or hang banners symbolizing Al Quaeda? It DOESN'T MATTER what led to the decision, once a group decides to defect and wage war it is the enemy. Robert B couldn't have said it any more clearly. Do the British fly the American flag over Buckingham Palace? Do they sing The Star Spangled Banner at Parliment? No, they don't. Friggin' ridiculous...

There's a little thing called Freedom of Speech here in the States.  You have a right to fly the Confederate Battle Flag for any reason (or no reason) whatsoever.  You can also fly a Nazi flag and legally charge anyone with assault and battery should they attack you.  You can also hang banners for Al Quaeda and legally charge anyone with assault and battery too.  So long as you are flying flags, then you are practicing freedom of speech.  If you go beyond flying flags and start burning giant lowercase t's in people's front yard, then we go into something else. 

Flying a flag is just flying a flag.  It's the same as if your group (whatever it may be) flew a flag (myself and Gay Pride for example).  But to deny one group their chance at free speech is to deny all groups their free speech.

BTW, we discussed the US Civil War a few years back on this forum, aka "NO BLOOD FOR COTTON!!!"

MysticCow wrote:

jax wrote:

I am astounded no wait DUMBFOUNDED at how we can take a modern issue like Iraq or modern politics in general and anyone who questions anything the government is doing is considered a traitor but somehow flying the flag of true 'enemies of the state' is somehow okay. smurfing insane!  Seriously, if it's okay to fly the confederate flag does that mean we can fly a Nazi flag or hang banners symbolizing Al Quaeda? It DOESN'T MATTER what led to the decision, once a group decides to defect and wage war it is the enemy. Robert B couldn't have said it any more clearly. Do the British fly the American flag over Buckingham Palace? Do they sing The Star Spangled Banner at Parliment? No, they don't. Friggin' ridiculous...

There's a little thing called Freedom of Speech here in the States.  You have a right to fly the Confederate Battle Flag for any reason (or no reason) whatsoever.  You can also fly a Nazi flag and legally charge anyone with assault and battery should they attack you.  You can also hang banners for Al Quaeda and legally charge anyone with assault and battery too.  So long as you are flying flags, then you are practicing freedom of speech.  If you go beyond flying flags and start burning giant lowercase t's in people's front yard, then we go into something else. 

Flying a flag is just flying a flag.  It's the same as if your group (whatever it may be) flew a flag (myself and Gay Pride for example).  But to deny one group their chance at free speech is to deny all groups their free speech.
BTW, we discussed the US Civil War a few years back on this forum, aka "NO BLOOD FOR COTTON!!!"

Sorry if it wasn't established but I'm talking about the flying over government buildings (including schools). If someone wants to sport the ever so fashionable 'stars and bars' than that's all fine and good. It seems highly backwards however to fly flags once used by past enemies over our government institutions.

As for the whole, it's a symbol of southern pride angle. Sorry but I don't buy it. The KKK were nostalgiac for the 'good old days' too. As are many Neo-Nazi's fond of the former glory years of the old SS too. It doesn't change the impact. Unfortunately, the good is often outweighed by the bad.

MysticCow wrote:

Why can't they fly the other Confederate flag?  It carries no negative connotation like the battle flag does.

Again, do the British fly our flag? Would we fly any of Germany or Japan's WWII era symbols of national pride over a federal building? The Confederate flag whether it's the one they used for battle or the one they took to go have a ho-down it is still a symbol of an institution other than our own. The Confederacy defected and waged war against the United States of America. They went far beyond the point of debate and dissent. How are Confederates not traitors? By definition their seccession is an undeniable act of treason. Is it supposed to be somehow, okay, to have pride in a collective that's main purpose was opposition to our government? Southern pride is fine, everyone should be proud. However, we should be honest with ourselves as well.

Yes. Take the second confederate flag, for example...

jax wrote:

MysticCow wrote:

Why can't they fly the other Confederate flag?  It carries no negative connotation like the battle flag does.

Again, do the British fly our flag? Would we fly any of Germany or Japan's WWII era symbols of national pride over a federal building? The Confederate flag whether it's the one they used for battle or the one they took to go have a ho-down it is still a symbol of an institution other than our own.

but it also a symbol of an institution that is part of the souths history - which is why having it in a flag of a southern state is not a problem for me.

Would I ever have a confederate flag?
Nope - AFAIK I have no ancestors from the South, nor have I ever lived there - it's not part of me.
But it is part of the southern states, and they should have the right to use it in their state flag.

resedit wrote:

jax wrote:

MysticCow wrote:

Why can't they fly the other Confederate flag?  It carries no negative connotation like the battle flag does.

Again, do the British fly our flag? Would we fly any of Germany or Japan's WWII era symbols of national pride over a federal building? The Confederate flag whether it's the one they used for battle or the one they took to go have a ho-down it is still a symbol of an institution other than our own.

but it also a symbol of an institution that is part of the souths history - which is why having it in a flag of a southern state is not a problem for me.

Would I ever have a confederate flag?
Nope - AFAIK I have no ancestors from the South, nor have I ever lived there - it's not part of me.
But it is part of the southern states, and they should have the right to use it in their state flag.

...but unless the federal government is stopping state or local governments from using it, I don't see how the decision by a state's legislature itself to not use the flag is violating anyone's rights to anything.

resedit wrote:

bratboy wrote:

...but unless the federal government is stopping state or local governments from using it, I don't see how the decision by a state's legislature itself to not use the flag is violating anyone's rights to anything.

It's not. If a state decides they don't want it, that's their choice.

....so what's this debate about again?

I thought it was about lesbianism.  Yeah, that has to be it.

Duke Stratosphere wrote:

MysticCow wrote:

I thought it was about lesbianism.  Yeah, that has to be it.

Confederate Black Lesbians are hot.

:wink:

Podesta wrote:

LOL!  I loved the way Jax summarized the issue.  Very to the point.

Ribotorus wrote:

Do we conclude NokX is intelligent enough to grasp this, and consider him a white supremicist, or do we give him the benefit of the doubt and just consider him as being duped?

I'm afraid we have to conclude the former.  NokX apparently has a pattern of race-baiting.

Given that you accused me of being racist - I don't put much stock in who you accuse of racism.
I don't find Nokx to be racist - I do find him to be conservative, I understand for some they think that means racist, but that's a rather narrow superioristic viewpoint, don't you think?

Podesta wrote:

You are entitled to your opinions, Resedit.  Unfortunately, they tend not to be based in fact.   Even after being given primary historical documents to refute neo-Confederate propaganda, you are still claiming slavery was not the main cause of the Civil War, and, the Confederate flag is merely a symbol of  'pride.'   Nuff said.

It was a factor, but the South had not been ordered to give up their slaves.
That is fact. That didn't happen until the end of the war. Initially, the north USED slaves by offering southern slaves freedom if they fought for the north - and then AFTER that they freed all slaves.

If you ask me - that's pretty dirty itself, they should have declared slaves free first - rather than using freedom as an incentive for fighting.

The war was economic - and the souths economy was based on slavery.
The southern states did not feel like their needs were being heard, and not just about slavery - about tariffs as well. When it was decided that no new states would be slave states, the south saw that as a further sign of their voice being squashed in the federal arena. That is why the war happened.

The irony at this place is just sometimes appauling. Look at the flag burning thread - "it doesn't mean you hate america to burn a flag, it's just a symbol, don't make the flag something it's not" yet in this thread "you racist pig! The battle flag of the confederacy means you are racist!!"

Last edited by resedit (2005-07-08 5:45 pm)