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The first link was from: National Council of Resistance of Iran - Foreign Affairs Committee

A bunch of exiled Iranians who want their power back. Of course they're gonna try to make Iran look bad. What a sorry attempt. FYI: There were more than two rapist involved, several more are still at-large. Maybe they joined the Resistance of Iran.

PantherAmI wrote:

The first link was from: National Council of Resistance of Iran - Foreign Affairs Committee

A bunch of exiled Iranians who want their power back. Of course they're gonna try to make Iran look bad. What a sorry attempt. FYI: There were more than two rapist involved, several more are still at-large. Maybe they joined the Resistance of Iran.

Well I'm glad that you now know with authority exactly what happened.

I don't believe ANY prisoner (especially a minor) should be executed, for having homosexual sex or for rape.

My point remains the same.

iBubba wrote:

AAPL Shareholder wrote:

Pariah wrote:

You can't deny that the left has had a shamefull history of being an apologist for the anti-woman culture in most Islamic countries. This is just an extention of that same belief system.

WTF are you talking about? Are you kidding me? Is today opposite day or something?

Progressive folks have been at the forefront for global women's rights campaigns. We've been fighting against genital mutilation and antiquated traditionalism in africa, extremist oppression in the middle east, etc, etc.   

Please don't confuse respecting one's culture with shielding oppression and extremism. They're very very different, and intertwining them is incredibly counter productive. We should be trying to unify people to address these horrible issues, not ignorantly alienating people who want the same thing.

Sorry if I sounded like an ass.... but that post kind of pissed me off.  I've spent a significant portion of my life involved with progressive NPOs and global human rights campaigns. Much of my time has been spent trying to get the stories of the oppressed, to the public (our public). All too frequently, many of those stories revolve around woman. Women who have been banned from schooling,  banned from the workplace, banned from politics,  forced into guarded sweat shops, mutilated , beaten, covered up, murdered, forced by sweatshop to have abortions, had their children executed, etc. I could go on and on.

So say that the "left" has had a "shameful history of being an apologist for the anti-woman culture most Islamic countries" is, quite frankly, the COMPLETE OPPOSITE of what has actually taken place.

I fought my outrage at their outlandish claim, but almost replied inthe same spirit as you. I think you've been hooked by the bait. Join me in ignoring this thread? I'll buy the first round.

Agreed

I tried ignoring this whole forum... and I was fairly successful for a while. Perhaps I should get back to minithink abstinence.

XYZ wrote:

The abortion angle is problematic when compared with the issue of execution homosexuals. Many believe life begins at birth, not in the womb. Others, like myself, feel it is not murder to abort an embryo but it is murder to abort a fetus, unless the mother will die.

You're talking about what you believe like that means something.
Guess what, some people believe homosexuality is sick perverted immoral and needs to be eliminated from society. They don't care what some medical association says, they have their beliefs and that is gays are sub-human. Kind of like how some describe about a fetus.
Sure there are differences, there are differences between capitol punishment and abortion or war and abortion but that doesn't stop (I won't name names) from standing around feeling superior and pointing out the hypocrisy of someone who is for one and against the other.

so this a thread is about abortion now?

XYZ wrote:

Calling a political opponent gay is an old tactic.

yeah, just ask Karl Rove

Hank Rearden wrote:

True. And if "no one likes" them, then it begs the question:

"What is there not to like?"

Is the dislike sort of like the dislike of open heart surgery?  That is, I don't like it that I have to have it?  But not really that I "don't like" such surgeries, as a matter of principle?

Or, is the dislike more of a visceral kind...that is a dislike because there is something wrong with it?

And, if so...what, exactly is wrong with it?

The upshot, I've often heard pro-choice people say that they dislike it, but I've never heard them say WHAT they dislike about it.  They are very, very vague on that issue.

As a prolife person, I can say that I dislike:
-humans being killed by other humans simply because of who they are. 
(Note that, although I am not a huge proponent of capital punishment for certain crimes...though I don't shed any tears when the likes of Ted Bundy get their comeuppance...that this stance does leave room for said form of punishment).

That goes for those two poor fellows in Iran (assuming that this isn't all some Iranian version of the INC spinning myths) whom this thread is, presumably about...and it goes for unborn humans as well.

What is there not to like?  (that is, if it's just another medical procedure?)
I'd love to have someone answer that for me.

I'll try.
A woman who has to have an abortion is like an animal caught in a trap who has to  chew its own leg off in order to escapef the trap.

Even among people who are pro-choice, there is a recognition that a POTENTIAL human life is coming to an end. The recognition of the potentiality exists even when the concerned person does not believe that the mass of cells yet possesses a soul.

The procedure itself, even when done early, is upsetting, bloody, painful, punishing. It is shameful to anyone who has it, even a retarded girl who has no sense of the controversial nature of the procedure. Even a dog would mind the violation upon the body that it entails (no pun intended).

People have abortions because they cannot afford to have a child, financiallly or emotionally.
People have abortions because they have been raped and cannot bear to live with the rapist's progeny inside themselves.
People have abortions because the child they wanted is somehow damaged and the parents cannot raise it without enormous financial and/or psychic hardship.
People have abortions because their own parents are ashamed and unwilling or incapable of accepting their daughter's pregnancy.


All abortions are an admission of a failure of some kind.

I am pro-life as well as pro-choice. As the junior senator from NY puts it, "Abortions should be safe, legal, and rare." Many abortions are prevented now because society is a lot more accepting of "unwed mothers" who keep their children, despite how hard that is, and because parents are far more likely to make sure that if their daughters are sexually active that they use birth control and because sexually active people choose to use birth control (although there are many failures which lead to abortions).

I am prolife because I believe that "Thou shalt not kill" means just that. The only exception is self-defense. No capital punishment, unless the person will definitely kill again despite incarceration. No euthanasia but definitely enough drugs to allow people to die without agony. No abortion if there is more than likely a soul in the embryo or fetus (ah! there's the rub).  I consider abortion killing or potential killing, but I would not change the existing laws because the decision must be left up to the individual during the first trimester. For I could be wrong. Meanwhile, in order to lessen the chances of people having to have abortions, I do what I can for the girls most likely to find themselves entrapped in unwanted pregnancies.

All executions are murder. The two that started this thread certainly are.

Last edited by debbiedowner (2005-07-23 10:51 am)

Ribtorus wrote:

Hank Rearden wrote:

iBubba wrote:

WTF does abortion have to do with the public execution of two gay teens?

What the Farmer said.

And

Hank wrote:

As a prolife person, I can say that I dislike:
-humans being killed by other humans simply because of who they are.

(snip)

That goes for those two poor fellows in Iran (assuming that this isn't all some Iranian version of the INC spinning myths) whom this thread is, presumably about...and it goes for unborn humans as well.

Farmer's was a well-drawn parallel.

In any case, hanging people because they are gay, green, or gallant is repugnant.  Killing anyone because of who they are is repugnant.

What if they're Ted Bundy?

They didn't kill him for who he was, they killed him for what he did.

and for what he did he deserved execution. In fact, if there were a way to bring someone back from the dead he deserved to be executed, raised from the dead and executed again.

Last edited by everlong205 (2005-07-23 10:32 am)

Wow, that is disgusting.

Farmerkev wrote:

You're talking about what you believe like that means something.
Guess what, some people believe homosexuality is sick perverted immoral and needs to be eliminated from society. They don't care what some medical association says, they have their beliefs and that is gays are sub-human.

Not all opinions are equal. Opinions that have a logical basis are generally more useful than those that have an irrational basis.

Kind of like how some describe about a fetus.

An embryo is not a human being. It is a clump of cells that cannot think and cannot survive outside the womb, just as an egg and sperm are not human beings. That is why the Morning After pill is not infanticide.

A fetus that can survive outside the womb without significant medical assistance can be considered an infant and therefore should not be aborted, unless the mother will die. A mother should probably be given the choice to live or die when bearing a fatal child.

Is it fact that these men committed that crime, or were they executed for being gay and the rape was invented in order to justify the killings?

XYZ wrote:

Is it fact that these men committed that crime, or were they executed for being gay and the rape was invented in order to justify the killings?

In the eyes of the Iranian Supreme court it is a fact. I'm sure those two had a good defense in light of the serious charges and possible sentence. I'm inclined to believe they did it, but who really knows? What about the victim? Why are you so inclined to believe he's a liar? They admitted to doing it.

Muslim society doesn't tolerate homosexuality, consequently gays don't like Muslim society. I'm not taking sides in this, but it seems to me that the gay view-point in this thread is a little mis-guided.