Forums | MacLife

Czachorski · 2003-02-10 7:59 pm

I know we had quite a debate last month here about whether software piracy is immoral or wrong. I was just at my Public Library looking at CD's and the thought occurred to me whether it would be wrong to rip CD's that you checked out from you local Public Library to your Mac?

Of course, I would think that it would be both wrong and illegal to rip the music permanently to your Mac, but it does make me think. I mean, I could go to the library and check-out the music any time I want, is it wrong for me to rip the disc, and just make it slightly more convienent to listen to the music? I am not stealing the disc from the library, nor am I taking the music without paying for it from the record company - I mean, I could go check-out the music and listen to it for free anytime I want! That is the whole concept of a library.

What about ripping the music, only for temporary use while you had the CD, so you could play it on your computer, instead of the stereo? What about ripping it for temporary use on an iPod, and then erasing the music when you return the CD to the library? Does it matter what device you use to play the music?

I wonder what the RIAA thinks of Public library's that check out CD's for free. It seems like a Public Library could never go digital. If people could sign out digital copies of books, music and movies from an on-line Public Library, it would be way too easy to make digital copies of the media. Doesn't that mean Public Libaries will eventually go obsolete, or become more like museums for physical media of the 20th century based on paper and plastic, rather than zeros and ones??

Just a thought. (I hope that this is OK to post on the Applewire forum - I wasn't sure where better to post it, so I tried to mix in some references to Macs and iPods tongue big_smile )

AssassyN · 2003-02-10 8:04 pm

Screw the RIAA, rip what you want, that's my point of view smile

EvnALLEN · 2003-02-10 8:10 pm

Thats crazy. By that logic, I could just download any song/full album/eBook/PDF Book/RealText Book/Movie that I could rent at a video store/check out at the library. When there is ONE copy of the CD/Book at the library, they bought the liscance for ONE copy of the information. ONE person at a time can use it. Like computer software, I could buy and install FCP on my machine. Then if I went to stay at a friends house I could UNINSTALL it from my machine, install it on his computer while I am using it there, then UNINSTALL it from his machine when I left and put it on my machine again. That would be a waste of time, but I think you get the idea of what I am saying.
I suppose if you put RIPED the CD from the library to your computer/iPod the deleted it when you returned the CD, it would be OK.
Thats my understanding of the LAW. Ethics are different!

Nefarious · 2003-02-10 8:16 pm

The ethical question depends on your resources: money and availability of the CD.

If the CD is out of print, go ahead. If the CD is in print and you can afford to buy it, then buy it.

In-between example: there may be only 1 good song on a $ 15-20 CD. And currently, there is no way to purchase just the one song (to my knowledge), especially if the song is a the one being pushed to the fascist Clear Channel Corporation. If the RIAA doesn't get the message that people want to buy just one song, then they need to receive a reminder that they lost a sale. So, then you rip a copy of that song and also send the RIAA a hint about it.

~Coxy · 2003-02-10 8:21 pm

I'd say that ripping a CD from a public library is one tiny bit "more ethical" than ripping a CD that a friend owns, since as a taxpayer you actually "own" the CD. twisted

zigMachine · 2003-02-10 8:46 pm

And as a tuition payer, I have paid somehow for the music I rip from the CDs in the Tulane Jazz Archive...

And let me tell you, that's a darn good jazz archive... many, many gigabytes of music have made their way from Howard-Tilton and Jones to my dorm room!

so · 2003-02-10 9:01 pm

Read the notice on your libraries copy machine, keep that notice in mind when you get home to your own copy machine.

nstehle · 2003-02-10 9:03 pm

It isn't stealing if you don't deprive someone of income or physically take something of someone else's. Screw the RIAA. MA will lock this thread--but keep in mind, they are only doing it to protect their asses. We can't blame them. MS, the RIAA, etc. are bullies and they'll take on anybody in town because they can.

tripletmot · 2003-02-10 9:07 pm

It's funny that this comes up as I have started ripping CDs from the library myself only recently. In college, I was in a band and we sold CDs that we made. I personally wouldn't feel bad if someone ripped our CD or duped it for a friend, it's good word of mouth. However, I know I speak from my POV only.

No good answers to this, however I do agree that if you can afford the disc, you should support the artist that made it. You should also be allowed to try before you buy... then again, I'd guess that most people check out books from the library, read it once but never buy it.

One thing though... did anyone ever see a video in the '80s called "Don't Copy that Floppy"? I saw it at school... Still remember the song from it...

justinw · 2003-02-10 9:19 pm

Ok, since your question isn't really a question of right or wrong, but rather the search for some encouragement to do what you already know is wrong, I can not answer the question.

One must simplify the question in order to understand your perspective, and that of the other posts here.

1. Man has created about 35 million laws to enforce 10 commandments. Since morality is in direct relation with legality, then if there is a law that says "don't copy CDs" you are breaking it, and you are in the wrong.

2. The subtext of your question is " is there absolute right and wrong, or can I make up my own morality, relative to my life?"

3. to answer your question to in the absolute form which it demands: If YOU did not PERSONNALLY buy the CD - that is to say that YOU paid for it yourself, and you have a receipt form some kind of store for it. Then you are breaking the law, and more importantly doing somethign WRONG.

4. Here is where I go out on a limb, and make a wild, crazy example:
If i kill someone who I don't like, is it the same as killing someone I do like? Or how about, if I just go out to the parking lot and take a car (not mine) is it ok? I mean I do own a car, and it is equal in features and value to the one I am going to take.

5. To take it even further, the issue of right and wrong is biblical. Sin and the absence of sin. There are no degrees of sin (all due respect to our brothers and sistere in the Catholic faith). Sin is what separates us from God (righteousness, good, etc.). In God's eyes having sex with someone is no greater a sin than thinking about it. Sin is when we fall short of God's righteousness. God sees right and wrong. The Law of man sees right and wrong. Why is it that people close their eyes. (MYSELF INCLUDED)

By the way, we all fall short of God's righteousness, but if we accept Jesus Christ as Lord of our life, and ask for forgiveness, it is granted.

I had to put that in, to be honest. Please don't let that last point derail the focus of this conversation.

Macskeeball · 2003-02-10 9:48 pm

This thread seems to coincide with a thread I just recently created. I need some pointers for my research about the RIAA, Palladium, and copy-protection. You're help is greatly appreciated.

nstehle · 2003-02-10 9:51 pm

By the way, we all fall short of God's righteousness, but if we accept Jesus Christ as Lord of our life, and ask for forgiveness, it is granted.

I admire your faith, but I fail to see what accepting Christ and salvation for the Elect by faith has to do with piracy.

Macskeeball · 2003-02-10 9:56 pm

By the way, we all fall short of God's righteousness, but if we accept Jesus Christ as Lord of our life, and ask for forgiveness, it is granted.
I admire your faith, but I fail to see what accepting Christ and salvation for the Elect by faith has to do with piracy.

I think it's simply about the basic concept of right and wrong.

double time · 2003-02-10 10:00 pm

By the way, we all fall short of God's righteousness, but if we accept Jesus Christ as Lord of our life, and ask for forgiveness, it is granted.

aw, how cute, another mindless sheep who believes ina fairy tale because he cn't accept grandma is rotting in a grave instead of up in heaven...

binky · 2003-02-10 10:15 pm

By the way, we all fall short of God's righteousness, but if we accept Jesus Christ as Lord of our life, and ask for forgiveness, it is granted.
aw, how cute, another mindless sheep who believes ina fairy tale because he cn't accept grandma is rotting in a grave instead of up in heaven...

TOOL!

justinw · 2003-02-10 10:19 pm

By the way, we all fall short of God's righteousness, but if we accept Jesus Christ as Lord of our life, and ask for forgiveness, it is granted.
aw, how cute, another mindless sheep who believes ina fairy tale because he cn't accept grandma is rotting in a grave instead of up in heaven...

AWWW, look how cute another mindless sheep who believes in an unsubstiantiated fairy tale (EVOLUTION) because (s)he doesn't want to look at himself in the mirror and see how broken he is.

justinw · 2003-02-10 10:21 pm

By the way, we all fall short of God's righteousness, but if we accept Jesus Christ as Lord of our life, and ask for forgiveness, it is granted.
I admire your faith, but I fail to see what accepting Christ and salvation for the Elect by faith has to do with piracy.

Great way to demonstrat how someone can take something out of context and use it to prove how narrow and obtuse (s)he is.

mediocresau · 2003-02-10 10:24 pm

I'd say that ripping a CD from a public library is one tiny bit "more ethical" than ripping a CD that a friend owns, since as a taxpayer you actually "own" the CD.

Hmm, in some weird way, I kind of agree with you. Because the public library, is what it is "public." And a portion of the taxes that we pay do indeed go to these public institutions.

However, if you rip a CD from the library, it should be only for YOUR use. Because although the library is still offering this convience, abusing it would surely send the RIAA all over its arse.

At this point, I think ripping CDs from the library for your OWN PERSONAL USE is acceptable. But again, if this is abused, one more outlet for music will be closed.

Meanwhile, everyone should read the new Wired (Feb 2003) focusing on "Rip. Mix. Burn." There are some great articles about the future of the music industry and its relationship to P2P.

Well, that's about it, from the dude that started the whole "software piracy" thread last month. Man, I cannot help but feel like a hypocrite for posting this... roll

Czachorski · 2003-02-10 10:31 pm

2. The subtext of your question is " is there absolute right and wrong, or can I make up my own morality, relative to my life?"

I don't think that there is an absolute right and wrong. This issue can be sliced into several shades of grey. Ripping the music and keeping it on my computer forever, I think is clearly wrong. Checking it out from the library is clearly ok. Ripping it temporaraly to play on a computer or an iPod falls in the grey area. Everyones sense of moral are slightly different and each will draw the line at a different place.

Isn't that what's Christ's foregiveness is all about? The shades of grey? Sometimes we make a decision in the grey zone that ends up being very clearly wrong. Please Lord foregive me. But to use Christ's foregiveness as a tool to rationalize doing something that is clearly wrong, just because you know that you can ask for foregiveness later, and receive it, seems especially evil to me.

opium · 2003-02-10 10:33 pm

If the CD is out of print, go ahead. If the CD is in print and you can afford to buy it, then buy it.

I can live with that.

Mac Daddy · 2003-02-10 10:39 pm

By the way, we all fall short of God's righteousness, but if we accept Jesus Christ as Lord of our life, and ask for forgiveness, it is granted.

You're that guy that keeps coming to my door, aren't you?

Before you get upset... I'm a man of religion too.

and who ever said "can not", that's wrong... it's "cannot", which is why you can shorten it to can't...

Oh, and you can make as many copies while you have the CD as long as they are destroyed when you return it.

Basically, only one copy of the song can be played at any one time... which follows the same path that you can allow a friend to borrow a cd or book. Think of music as a book. You can photocopy it, if you prefer to read it that way, or you can scan it in and read it on your computer... as long as nobody is reading the original some where else. I know I missed some important part, but that's basically the way I look at it.

zigMachine · 2003-02-10 10:48 pm

Man has created about 35 million laws to enforce 10 commandments.

The commandments were a creation of man as well, right? I mean, bacteria certainly didn't write the stories we base many religions on.

Piracy is indeed a moral issue at the moment. If the ramifications (for the businesses, not the consumers) become more severe, then it will be more than a moral issue to be deal with individually. At the moment, piracy is not exactly stifling productivity or REASONABLE profitability. It's simply an expression of unwillingness to comply on the part of the consumer.

As such, it's an individual matter for the moment.

mediocresau · 2003-02-10 10:54 pm

let's please not talk about religion in this Forum.... neutral

Religion, after all, is such broderline issue, that the seperation of church and state was one of the smartest moves ever.

justinw · 2003-02-10 11:32 pm

Fine, ignor the "religion" aspect. The simple fact is that there IS ABSOLUTE right and wrong. There are no gray areas. You (whoever) may not want to hear it, but it is true, and you know it.

NAG · 2003-02-10 11:58 pm

Uh, religion is irrelevant in this argument.

If you checked out the CD I see no reason why you shouldn't be able to rip it so you can play it on your computer/mp3 player as long as you delete it when you check the CD back in.

For the record, I do not condone music piracy but that is far from supporting the RIAA.

Forums | MacLife

#1 2003-02-10 7:59 pm

Ethical question - Ripping CD's from The Public Library

#2 2003-02-10 8:04 pm

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#3 2003-02-10 8:10 pm

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#5 2003-02-10 8:21 pm

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#6 2003-02-10 8:46 pm

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