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#51 2007-10-21 2:07 pm
- Pariah
- James Carville Fan..

- From: Belly Of The Beast, Oklahoma!
- Registered: 2001-05-24
- Posts: 18425
Re: What things are you most looking foreword to in Leopard?
Metacell wrote:
Pariah wrote:
On the whole I like OSX, quite alot actually, as far as I am concerned it is by far the best OS available. But the MacOS has always been the best.
Just to be a wiseass, I'll interject that AmigaOS was light years ahead of Mac OS, at leas until version 7 (and still ahead in multitasking and memory management until OS X). And I'm supposing you're leaving out all the pro *NIX systems.
I am leaving AmigaOS out because I never used it but since I am talking about things like the GUI, font and graphics handling I am definitely including any and all *nix systems.
If I were...oh..say, modeling earth quacks or some other insane calculation I'm sure *Nix would be great but this discussion as about general purpose desktop OSs.
"and it's not surprising that they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."
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#52 2007-10-21 2:10 pm
Re: What things are you most looking foreword to in Leopard?
Metacell wrote:
Pariah wrote:
On the whole I like OSX, quite alot actually, as far as I am concerned it is by far the best OS available. But the MacOS has always been the best.
Just to be a wiseass, I'll interject that AmigaOS was light years ahead of Mac OS, at leas until version 7 (and still ahead in multitasking and memory management until OS X). And I'm supposing you're leaving out all the pro *NIX systems.
Yes, if Amiga had stayed in business, I might not be here using this forum! When I finally decided that my Tandy (aka Radio Shack) CoCo (Color Computer) running Microware OS-9 with Multi-Vue (an early windowing system or GUI), which was no longer officially supported, wouldn't carry me well into the future, I settled on Amiga as the best replacement. Unfortunately, sometime in 1992, the Amiga disappeared from retailer shelves. IMHO, OS-9 was light years ahead of both MS-DOS / Windows 3 and Mac OS (prior to OS X). The system was fully preemptive multitasking, reentrant code and very fast.
So, in late '92, I got my first Mac, a Performa 600CD. For currently offered systems, I definitely agree that Mac OS X is the very best!

caoimhin
Doing is my Acme
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#53 2007-10-21 4:16 pm
Re: What things are you most looking foreword to in Leopard?
I'm most looking forward to the new developer tools. I'm hoping they fix a lot of issues (such as code completion when you're not working with Cocoa...), and the new stuff like XRay should be pretty cool.
As for Carbon vs. Cocoa, Carbon is indeed becoming deprecated in Leopard. (there are no 64-bit carbon libraries, but 32 bit applications should work and compile just fine) Cocoa is much more "complete" as more effort has been put in it, though. Theoretically, Cocoa is slightly slower than Carbon, because the function calling conventions in Cocoa (or "messages") using Objective C are slower than function calls in Carbon using C or C++. However, in practice, unless you're doing something really crazy with many function calls, it isn't going to be a measurable difference. With the Finder, you're mainly waiting for calls on the system or user actions, so it's a non-issue. The only kinds of applications you might see a difference is in an application that is incredibly computationally heavy that requires many different parts working together. For example, if you were adamant in writing an application for CGI completely in Cocoa and Objective C, it would probably be noticeably slower than if you wrote the image generation routines in C or C++.
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#54 2007-10-21 6:14 pm
- geekette28
- Southpaw Extraordinare

- Registered: 2006-12-26
- Posts: 362
Re: What things are you most looking foreword to in Leopard?
I'm upgrading from Panther to Leopard. I never used Tiger, so I think it'll be a bit more interesting for me to make the change. From what I've seen so far, the overall design of the OS and being able to use the latest version of my favorite freeware programs makes it worth it. I've been wanting to use Songbird and Inkscape but they don't run on Panther. So really I'm just happy to have the latest version.
Commit random acts of nerdiness and senseless acts of dorkdom
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#55 2007-10-21 11:52 pm
- frankly
- Greetings Citizens!

- Registered: 2000-09-16
- Posts: 5103
Re: What things are you most looking foreword to in Leopard?
Pariah wrote:
What I was addressing was the persistent myth that the problem with the Finder has been that it is a Carbon app. That the coding language itself is the problem and that is simply not true, at all.
Just to clarify, Carbon is not a language. It is a set of APIs (Application Programming Interfaces), function calls if you will written using the C programming language. You are correct that using Carbon was not in and of itself the problem. Having said that, I don't think that Apple has been updating Carbon at the same level that they have been updating Cocoa. In fact, they are not offering the ability to compile apps using the Carbon API as 64-bit apps in Leopard. This will definitely put Carbon apps at a disadvantage against Cocoa apps going forward.
Frank
xkcd: Listen to Yourself
There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary and those who don't.
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#56 2007-10-22 12:48 pm
- MyMac8MyPC
- Member
- Registered: 2007-10-09
- Posts: 192
Re: What things are you most looking foreword to in Leopard?
Looking forward to a new feature that most people arent talking about. It's a new Apple security technology called ASLR which randomly arranges the positions of key data areas. You thought it was hard to get malware and viruses in OS X before? Leopard now notches that up and makes it 100 times harder 
Another reason IMO why OS X is superior to windows, and always will be. Leopard is light years ahead of anything else on the market. A true bargain at 129.00 
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#57 2007-10-22 12:59 pm
- Freakout Jackson
- Meme-free

- From: ::moderated like a mo-fo::
- Registered: 2001-08-21
- Posts: 6377
Re: What things are you most looking foreword to in Leopard?
I'm most looking forward to some new server features. iCal Server, iChat server and WIKI server are going to be huge for us at work.
"Perhaps if there were more Americans who had the courage to stand up to idiocy maybe we wouldn't have such an awful country." ~ VegasACF
I couldn't deal with a clone of myself. I would probably kill him inside a week, and tell the police it was justifiable homisuicide, and tell them to sit around and hang out with me for a week to show them why. ~ Dan
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#58 2007-10-22 1:33 pm
- Tickle-Me-Eric
- The Asthmatic Avenger

- From: Hollywood, CA
- Registered: 2000-06-12
- Posts: 3462
- Website
Re: What things are you most looking foreword to in Leopard?
MyMac8MyPC wrote:
Tickle-Me-Eric wrote:
As a Mac Consultant who has to support others, Time-Warp is #1. Setting up a quick, easy back-up solution will be fantastic...
I certainly hope you're being a nice Mac consultant and explaining to all of those nice people that Time Machine only makes “temporal” backups, and not bootable backups
You are correct, I am warning people of Time Machine's short-comings, but you have to realize that for my non-business clients (all my business clients have a real back-up system run off a server of some-kind or another) this is pretty much a "something" vs. nothing situation. So trust me, even just being able to go back and easily retrieve an accidentally deleted term paper, or photo will save me about 100 "WHERE is my [insert file name and/or type here]?" calls a year. This will definitely make my life easier by at least having something in place for my "cheaper" or "less techno-savvy" clients... Although I try to get rid of my "cheap" clients
Despite recommending several different back-up solutions to any and all of my clients, the private ones seem to never follow through with actually having me set it up or take my advice on this until they experience a catastrophic loss of data. However, when Apple starts saying something is worth doing, my clients seem a little more ready to jump aboard and spend a little extra or take my advice when it echoes something they read at Apple.com or saw at the Apple Store when they bought thier Mac.
edited to hide my 3rd grade level grammer
Last edited by Tickle-Me-Eric (2007-10-22 1:39 pm)
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#59 2007-10-22 1:48 pm
- frankly
- Greetings Citizens!

- Registered: 2000-09-16
- Posts: 5103
Re: What things are you most looking foreword to in Leopard?
MyMac8MyPC wrote:
Looking forward to a new feature that most people arent talking about. It's a new Apple security technology called ASLR which randomly arranges the positions of key data areas. You thought it was hard to get malware and viruses in OS X before? Leopard now notches that up and makes it 100 times harder
Another reason IMO why OS X is superior to windows, and always will be. Leopard is light years ahead of anything else on the market. A true bargain at 129.00
This is a nice security feature but it is my understanding that Vista has a similar feature.
xkcd: Listen to Yourself
There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary and those who don't.
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#60 2007-10-22 2:10 pm
- MyMac8MyPC
- Member
- Registered: 2007-10-09
- Posts: 192
Re: What things are you most looking foreword to in Leopard?
Tickle-Me-Eric wrote:
the private ones seem to never follow through with actually having me set it up or take my advice on this until they experience a catastrophic loss of data.
Boy oh boy do I ever understand that
It gets frustrating at times. Hopefully Leopard will take some of that stress out of your life 
frankly wrote:
This is a nice security feature but it is my understanding that Vista has a similar feature.
Really? Do you know what it's called? The only thing that I'm aware of in vista is a revised shell namespace which protects against program spoofing, but that is different than Apples ASLR.
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#61 2007-10-22 2:23 pm
- frankly
- Greetings Citizens!

- Registered: 2000-09-16
- Posts: 5103
Re: What things are you most looking foreword to in Leopard?
MyMac8MyPC wrote:
frankly wrote:
This is a nice security feature but it is my understanding that Vista has a similar feature.
Really? Do you know what it's called? The only thing that I'm aware of in vista is a revised shell namespace which protects against program spoofing, but that is different than Apples ASLR.
xkcd: Listen to Yourself
There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary and those who don't.
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#62 2007-10-22 2:38 pm
- MyMac8MyPC
- Member
- Registered: 2007-10-09
- Posts: 192
Re: What things are you most looking foreword to in Leopard?
Thanks Frank 
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#63 2007-10-22 3:31 pm
- HackerJax
- Previous Poster

- From: *unknown*
- Registered: 2002-07-13
- Posts: 4871
Re: What things are you most looking foreword to in Leopard?
MyMac8MyPC wrote:
It's a new Apple security technology called ASLR which randomly arranges the positions of key data areas.
ASLR comes from The PaX Team and it originated on Linux as a kernel patch. It was invented back in 2001.
Its not an apple invented technology and OS X is not the first OS to have it.
Another reason IMO why OS X is superior to windows, and always will be. Leopard is light years ahead of anything else on the market. A true bargain at 129.00
Windows XP SP2 has a partial implementation of ASLR called DEP (Data Execution Protection)
Vista has had ASLR since Beta 2.
Its been in various linux distributions since 2002 and as of Linux Kernel 2.6.20 it is enabled by default.
This is actually a case of apple catching up by adding existing technology to OS X, which I'm totally cool with because its good tech.
PaX homepage (the ones who not only invented the technology but coined the term ASLR)
http://pax.grsecurity.net/
MSDN blog about beta 2 and ASLR
http://blogs.msdn.com/michael_howard/ar … vista.aspx
XP SP2 Doc explaining DEP in Windows.
http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/libr … 57155.aspx
Wikipedia entry on ASLR (Yeah its wikipedia but this entry is accurate, I've read it)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Address_sp … on#History

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#64 2007-10-22 3:34 pm
- HackerJax
- Previous Poster

- From: *unknown*
- Registered: 2002-07-13
- Posts: 4871
Re: What things are you most looking foreword to in Leopard?
frankly wrote:
MyMac8MyPC wrote:
frankly wrote:
This is a nice security feature but it is my understanding that Vista has a similar feature.
Really? Do you know what it's called? The only thing that I'm aware of in vista is a revised shell namespace which protects against program spoofing, but that is different than Apples ASLR.
Thanks dude. Posted my links before I saw your post with the info.

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#65 2007-10-22 3:46 pm
- MyMac8MyPC
- Member
- Registered: 2007-10-09
- Posts: 192
Re: What things are you most looking foreword to in Leopard?
HackerJax wrote:
PaX homepage (the ones who not only invented the technology but coined the term ASLR)
Thanks for the link. Appreciate it 
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#66 2007-10-23 9:39 am
- MacZiMiZer
- Jack of All, King of None

- From: US of A
- Registered: 2001-10-25
- Posts: 1551
Re: What things are you most looking foreword to in Leopard?
The first post got all mine pretty much.
I'm just glad I'm finally getting a Mac Pro, I've been waiting over, god three years now? Because everytime I was going to get one, Apple announced something, but now that I sold my old iMac and just have a black Macbook, and Leopard is coming, Leopard + ATIx1900 + dual 3.0 Ghz + 2gigs ram will be more than I need for a long while.
And time machine I could have used awhile ago heh
8/7/04 Wiz, never forgotten
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#67 2007-10-23 9:50 am
- reece_james
- TheLAD

- From: Wollongong, Australia.
- Registered: 2001-12-01
- Posts: 3790
- Website
Re: What things are you most looking foreword to in Leopard?
The bottleneck in that system is the 2GB of RAM. I have 2GB in the iMac and it just isn't enough.
4Gb would be smooth...
Reece [/IMHO]
"All posts on the internet are postfixed by an invisible 'IMHO'", tito
Intel iMac CD 1.83Ghz, 2GB RAM, 17" + 20", 1160GB HD, 10.5.2.
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#68 2007-10-23 10:02 am
Re: What things are you most looking foreword to in Leopard?
ScifiterX wrote:
I highly doubt the Leopard Finder is Carbon. It's supposed to be Universal Binary which means the code had to be converted from Carbon to Cocoa in order to be used.
Then again unless some developer breaks NDA, I'm guessing we wait for the launch to find out for sure.
Hmm? Apps don't have to be Cocoa to be UB. The Finder has always been Carbon and it really doesn't look like Apple did the necessary from-scratch rewrite that would be required to make a Cocoa finder.
iTunes and Adobe CS 3 are both UB, Carbon apps.
[edited because I said "it really don't look like..." and I am not yet willing to concede that I have become a redneck]
Last edited by Daniel (2007-10-23 10:07 am)
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#69 2007-10-23 3:19 pm
Re: What things are you most looking foreword to in Leopard?
He was probably thinking of how you need Cocoa to compile for 64 bit.
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#70 2007-10-23 5:17 pm
Re: What things are you most looking foreword to in Leopard?
Actually I figured it was both but I latched on to the first of the two things I could think of at the time. I still feel given the general preference for using Cocoa for UB & 64 bit, the likelihood of a Carbon Finder is still than the likelihood a Cocoa Finder, though given Daniel's examples I'll admit it's possible Apple isn't going to reduce that Carbon footprint yet.
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