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#1 2007-11-12 2:21 pm
- bratboy
- laden with emotion
- Royal Wombat
- From: Austin, Texas
- Registered: 2003-01-19
- Posts: 34106
Dick and George in the 90's on invading Iraq
...and you thought the prophets were in the other thread:
Christenson, who covers the military for the San Antonio (Tex.) Express-News, penned the piece for Sunday's paper that cited Bush's comments on Veteran's Day 1997 as governor of Texas. He pointed to Bush's defense of his father's decision during the Gulf War not to remove Saddam Hussein.
"There are a lot of Americans (who say), 'Why didn't you go get him?'" Bush told the Express-News back in 1997, according to Christenson. "Well, I'm confident that losing men and women as a result of sniper fire inside of Baghdad would have turned the tide of public opinion very quickly," Bush added.
Bush said efforts to ferret out Saddam from his many Baghdad hideouts would have transformed the battle from a desert conflict to an unpopular "guerrilla war," Chistenson recalled.
Later, Christenson points out that "Vice President Dick Cheney, in an April 15, 1994, interview...said Arab troops would have abandoned the coalition if the Americans had pressed on. U.S. forces would have stood alone in an occupation of Baghdad, he said, and seen greater casualties. 'Once you got to Iraq and took it over, and took down Saddam Hussein's government, then what are you going to put in its place? That's a very volatile part of the world and if you take down the central government of Iraq you can easily end up seeing pieces of Iraq fly off,' Cheney said in the interview, which was done by C-SPAN and surfaced last summer on YouTube. He added, 'It's a quagmire if you go that far and try to take over Iraq.'"
"One thing we've learned is there's a difference between being disappointed and having madmen in authority."
--Paul Krugman
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#2 2007-11-12 2:24 pm
- ShnickyShnack
- ::: title edited due to Satanic influences :::
- From: Rockin' out
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- Posts: 22237
Re: Dick and George in the 90's on invading Iraq
I've always been fascinated by this situation. It's incredibly interesting. There was a widespread and drastic changing of minds at some point. What caused it? What about reality allowed them to reverse themselves?
It's just so huge, so fundamental. Reminds me of Mussolini, who at one point switched from being passionately antiwar to being an ardent pro-war nutcase.
(fascism doesn't count as a godwin, does it?)
(missing a ] there, brats)
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#3 2007-11-12 2:28 pm
- user
- Your plastic pal who's fun to be with
- From: I'm not getting you down, am I
- Registered: 2001-10-15
- Posts: 16031
Re: Dick and George in the 90's on invading Iraq
They were only following orders.
Aw, he's no fun, he fell right over.
Unless you become as little children, there's no way you will believe this crap.
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#4 2007-11-12 3:05 pm
- ShnickyShnack
- ::: title edited due to Satanic influences :::
- From: Rockin' out
- Registered: 2001-05-25
- Posts: 22237
Re: Dick and George in the 90's on invading Iraq
Ouch.
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#5 2007-11-12 3:52 pm
- Farmerkev
- Official Dementor
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Re: Dick and George in the 90's on invading Iraq
ShnickyShnack wrote:
I've always been fascinated by this situation. It's incredibly interesting. There was a widespread and drastic changing of minds at some point. What caused it? What about reality allowed them to reverse themselves?
As much as you hate to hear it, 9-11 changed everything.
(and this is really old news bratty, even been here before more than once)
Do your part to combat global warming.
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#6 2007-11-12 3:53 pm
Re: Dick and George in the 90's on invading Iraq
They were able to get public opinion on their side after 9/11, even with the non-existent link between Saddam and AQ. And perhaps back in the day, they were naive enough to think that the UN would enforce the inspections and such.
It is an odd thing, but every one who disappears is said to be seen at San Francisco. It must be a delightful city, and possess all the attractions of the next world.
- Oscar Wilde
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#7 2007-11-12 3:56 pm
- user
- Your plastic pal who's fun to be with
- From: I'm not getting you down, am I
- Registered: 2001-10-15
- Posts: 16031
Re: Dick and George in the 90's on invading Iraq
9-11 didn't change anything.
It was just the excuse that they used.
Aw, he's no fun, he fell right over.
Unless you become as little children, there's no way you will believe this crap.
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#8 2007-11-12 4:00 pm
- bratboy
- laden with emotion
- Royal Wombat
- From: Austin, Texas
- Registered: 2003-01-19
- Posts: 34106
Re: Dick and George in the 90's on invading Iraq
Farmerkev wrote:
As much as you hate to hear it, 9-11 changed everything.
It certainly made the war easier to sell.
(and this is really old news bratty, even been here before more than once)
I don't see the Bush quote anywhere, which was the focus of the story.
"One thing we've learned is there's a difference between being disappointed and having madmen in authority."
--Paul Krugman
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#9 2007-11-12 4:03 pm
- JakeTheTall
- Cargo Cultist
- From: In Permanent Opposition
- Registered: 2003-03-13
- Posts: 9612
Re: Dick and George in the 90's on invading Iraq
Was Vice President Cheney paranoid enough to really think Iraq was about to get nuclear weapons ?
Or he just bought the bully/neo-con idea that kicking the crap out of an Muslim Arab country would show those Islamofascists not to mess with the US ?
Because Iraq didn't have anything to do with causing 9/11.
[edit: added the "causing" to clarify the 9/11 bit]
Last edited by JakeTheTall (2007-11-12 4:04 pm)
Jesus said to the servants, "Fill the jars with water"; so they filled them to the brim. Then he told them, "Now draw some out and take it to the master of the banquet." They did so, and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew.
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#10 2007-11-12 4:18 pm
- ShnickyShnack
- ::: title edited due to Satanic influences :::
- From: Rockin' out
- Registered: 2001-05-25
- Posts: 22237
Re: Dick and George in the 90's on invading Iraq
Farmerkev wrote:
ShnickyShnack wrote:
I've always been fascinated by this situation. It's incredibly interesting. There was a widespread and drastic changing of minds at some point. What caused it? What about reality allowed them to reverse themselves?
As much as you hate to hear it, 9-11 changed everything.
Wrong.
These guys had changed their minds and signed up with the PNAC glee club long before 9/11.
9/11 had nothing to do with their shift in thinking. It merely offered the happy coincidence of a marvelous pretext.
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#11 2007-11-12 4:30 pm
- Farmerkev
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Re: Dick and George in the 90's on invading Iraq
ShnickyShnack wrote:
Farmerkev wrote:
ShnickyShnack wrote:
I've always been fascinated by this situation. It's incredibly interesting. There was a widespread and drastic changing of minds at some point. What caused it? What about reality allowed them to reverse themselves?
As much as you hate to hear it, 9-11 changed everything.
Wrong.
These guys had changed their minds and signed up with the PNAC glee club long before 9/11.
9/11 had nothing to do with their shift in thinking. It merely offered the happy coincidence of a marvelous pretext.
I don't think Bush had changed his.
I don't think that the members of congress, by and large, had changed theirs.
Do your part to combat global warming.
Eat a cow.
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#12 2007-11-12 4:56 pm
- ShnickyShnack
- ::: title edited due to Satanic influences :::
- From: Rockin' out
- Registered: 2001-05-25
- Posts: 22237
Re: Dick and George in the 90's on invading Iraq
Farmerkev wrote:
ShnickyShnack wrote:
Farmerkev wrote:
As much as you hate to hear it, 9-11 changed everything.Wrong.
These guys had changed their minds and signed up with the PNAC glee club long before 9/11.
9/11 had nothing to do with their shift in thinking. It merely offered the happy coincidence of a marvelous pretext.I don't think Bush had changed his.
I don't think that the members of congress, by and large, had changed theirs.
The thread is about Cheney and Bush.
Link: Rebuilding America's Defenses (pdf), authored by the Project for the New American Century in September 2000, by among others Dick Cheney and Jeb Bush.
I'm not sure where Dubya stood on the issue back in '91, but Cheney absolutely reversed his position, along with many members of the Republican establishment (which, recall, had spent much of the 90s preaching of banning military interventions unless it was in America's direct interest, and avoiding nation-building altogether as a quagmire that would sap the country's strength).
So once again, the question is -- why the change?
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#13 2007-11-12 5:11 pm
- Farmerkev
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Re: Dick and George in the 90's on invading Iraq
You don't like the answer I've told you so put one of your own out.
You tell me what changed, what happened, what additional element altered the math.
Rising terrorist attacks culminating in 9-11 is the answer I see.
That's the straw that broke the camels back.
Do your part to combat global warming.
Eat a cow.
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#14 2007-11-12 5:20 pm
- ShnickyShnack
- ::: title edited due to Satanic influences :::
- From: Rockin' out
- Registered: 2001-05-25
- Posts: 22237
Re: Dick and George in the 90's on invading Iraq
Farmerkev wrote:
You don't like the answer I've told you so put one of your own out.
You tell me what changed, what happened, what additional element altered the math.
Rising terrorist attacks culminating in 9-11 is the answer I see.
That's the straw that broke the camels back.
Did you miss the part where I pointed out Cheney's mind having changed long before 9/11?
The change was independent of 9/11. I "don't like" the answer because the numbers don't add up. I've posted information to back that up. I'm not sure what the problem is.
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#15 2007-11-12 5:28 pm
- Farmerkev
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Re: Dick and George in the 90's on invading Iraq
ShnickyShnack wrote:
Farmerkev wrote:
You don't like the answer I've told you so put one of your own out.
You tell me what changed, what happened, what additional element altered the math.
Rising terrorist attacks culminating in 9-11 is the answer I see.
That's the straw that broke the camels back.Did you miss the part where I pointed out Cheney's mind having changed long before 9/11?
The change was independent of 9/11. I "don't like" the answer because the numbers don't add up. I've posted information to back that up. I'm not sure what the problem is.
Problem #1 is Cheney isn't President and CiC.
Many more changed their minds after 9-11.
The most important being Bush and Congress.
I think Cheney changed as terrorism escalated and changed the math. Another change was China.
I'd bet some pretty big money though that the war in Iraq wouldn't have happened without 9-11. Other actions for sure, but not what we have now.
Do your part to combat global warming.
Eat a cow.
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#16 2007-11-12 5:32 pm
- ShnickyShnack
- ::: title edited due to Satanic influences :::
- From: Rockin' out
- Registered: 2001-05-25
- Posts: 22237
Re: Dick and George in the 90's on invading Iraq
:: sigh ::
Okay, fine.
9/11! 9/11! 9/11!
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#17 2007-11-12 5:35 pm
- Farmerkev
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Re: Dick and George in the 90's on invading Iraq
ShnickyShnack wrote:
:: sigh ::
Okay, fine.
9/11! 9/11! 9/11!
No, it's not like that.
Do your part to combat global warming.
Eat a cow.
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#18 2007-11-12 5:36 pm
- ShnickyShnack
- ::: title edited due to Satanic influences :::
- From: Rockin' out
- Registered: 2001-05-25
- Posts: 22237
Re: Dick and George in the 90's on invading Iraq
Farmerkev wrote:
ShnickyShnack wrote:
:: sigh ::
Okay, fine.
9/11! 9/11! 9/11!No, it's not like that.
It seems like you keep trying to steer it in that direction despite everything I've posted, which to my mind clearly renders it irrelevant to the discussion.
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#19 2007-11-12 5:43 pm
- Farmerkev
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Re: Dick and George in the 90's on invading Iraq
ShnickyShnack wrote:
Farmerkev wrote:
ShnickyShnack wrote:
:: sigh ::
Okay, fine.
9/11! 9/11! 9/11!No, it's not like that.
It seems like you keep trying to steer it in that direction despite everything I've posted, which to my mind clearly renders it irrelevant to the discussion.
There are certain events that change the course of history.
You can't take any one of them out of the context of everything else that led up to them nor can you deny the watershed moment they happen.
Do your part to combat global warming.
Eat a cow.
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#20 2007-11-12 6:12 pm
- ShnickyShnack
- ::: title edited due to Satanic influences :::
- From: Rockin' out
- Registered: 2001-05-25
- Posts: 22237
Re: Dick and George in the 90's on invading Iraq
Farmerkev wrote:
ShnickyShnack wrote:
Farmerkev wrote:
No, it's not like that.It seems like you keep trying to steer it in that direction despite everything I've posted, which to my mind clearly renders it irrelevant to the discussion.
There are certain events that change the course of history.
You can't take any one of them out of the context of everything else that led up to them nor can you deny the watershed moment they happen.
But if they don't actually influence the events you're discussing, such events are irrelevant.
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#21 2007-11-12 7:11 pm
- user
- Your plastic pal who's fun to be with
- From: I'm not getting you down, am I
- Registered: 2001-10-15
- Posts: 16031
Re: Dick and George in the 90's on invading Iraq
9/11 was an excuse. They could have easily treated it with a police action. Instead, they started jumping up and down screaming that we were ATTACKED and that we were at war.
They needlessly elevated a motley group of criminals to the status of an army, ensuring that many more would flock to their cause.
Aw, he's no fun, he fell right over.
Unless you become as little children, there's no way you will believe this crap.
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#22 2007-11-12 8:13 pm
- bratboy
- laden with emotion
- Royal Wombat
- From: Austin, Texas
- Registered: 2003-01-19
- Posts: 34106
Re: Dick and George in the 90's on invading Iraq
9/11 created the perfect pretext, but the fact of the matter remains that there were a number of individuals amongst the 'neocon' set who were intent upon regime change in Iraq well before 9/11.
"One thing we've learned is there's a difference between being disappointed and having madmen in authority."
--Paul Krugman
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#23 2007-11-12 9:12 pm
- Farmerkev
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Re: Dick and George in the 90's on invading Iraq
user wrote:
9/11 was an excuse. They could have easily treated it with a police action. Instead, they started jumping up and down screaming that we were ATTACKED and that we were at war.
They needlessly elevated a motley group of criminals to the status of an army, ensuring that many more would flock to their cause.
We were attacked.
Several times.
Police action failed to prevent the next attack every time.
This isn't and has never been a police problem.
This is a political problem and a war of cultures.
Do your part to combat global warming.
Eat a cow.
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#24 2007-11-12 9:31 pm
- bratboy
- laden with emotion
- Royal Wombat
- From: Austin, Texas
- Registered: 2003-01-19
- Posts: 34106
Re: Dick and George in the 90's on invading Iraq
When does "police action" not fail to completely prevent another occurrence in the future? What does Iraq have to do with that, anyway? I see no indication that we are now safer thanks to our adventure in Iraq. Many more are now radicalized, if anything.
"One thing we've learned is there's a difference between being disappointed and having madmen in authority."
--Paul Krugman
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#25 2007-11-12 9:41 pm
- user
- Your plastic pal who's fun to be with
- From: I'm not getting you down, am I
- Registered: 2001-10-15
- Posts: 16031
Re: Dick and George in the 90's on invading Iraq
Farmerkev wrote:
user wrote:
9/11 was an excuse. They could have easily treated it with a police action. Instead, they started jumping up and down screaming that we were ATTACKED and that we were at war.
They needlessly elevated a motley group of criminals to the status of an army, ensuring that many more would flock to their cause.We were attacked.
Several times.
Police action failed to prevent the next attack every time.
This isn't and has never been a police problem.
This is a political problem and a war of cultures.
The people blamed for the attack are not members of the armed forces of any country, therefore military action is not effective. We have seen the truth of this.
Aw, he's no fun, he fell right over.
Unless you become as little children, there's no way you will believe this crap.
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