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reece_james wrote:

robco wrote:

He's not wrong on many points. The UI "upgrades" are just stupid.

Some are great, printing has been improved. Tabs in the terminal. Plenty of interface upgrades. Unfortunately the Dock and the Menu suffered. Only fixes for the former unfortunately.

I also think the following are improvements:

1) Unified look of windows
2) Larger icons
3) Quick Look
4) Path in Finder windows (I don't use it all the time but some people are extremely happy to see this)
5) Help menu with Spotlight integration, including pointing to menu commands
6) I use Spaces all day every day

I'm sure there are others but for robco and others to say that the UI "upgrades" are just stupid seems to be a rash generalization at best. If there is something specific he doesn't like then fine but does he really not like every single UI improvement???

Frank

Huge point that he makes that is spot on: this is the wrong OS to brag about, and I personally wish Apple at least was a little apologetic about some of the problems that a lot of people have had. And before anyone gets defensive- just because it didnt happen to you doesnt mean its something no one should get upset about. If they had run the smarmy ads about Tiger, it would be delicious. But when I am over a friends house when one of those things come on, I get, "hey, didnt you have problems with Leopard?"

If the geeks are right about Leopards newer under the hood features, then I cant wait till they squash all the bugs that a lot of people have. Daniel's right- if you go to the help forums, there are lots of people with the same problems, and that might be a normal day for software engineers, but I am not used to dealing with it from Apple, much less hearing it advertised loudy as the next big thing. I think its a little embarrassing.

StaticAge wrote:

Huge point that he makes that is spot on: this is the wrong OS to brag about, and I personally wish Apple at least was a little apologetic about some of the problems that a lot of people have had. And before anyone gets defensive- just because it didnt happen to you doesnt mean its something no one should get upset about. If they had run the smarmy ads about Tiger, it would be delicious. But when I am over a friends house when one of those things come on, I get, "hey, didnt you have problems with Leopard?"

If the geeks are right about Leopards newer under the hood features, then I cant wait till they squash all the bugs that a lot of people have. Daniel's right- if you go to the help forums, there are lots of people with the same problems, and that might be a normal day for software engineers, but I am not used to dealing with it from Apple, much less hearing it advertised loudy as the next big thing. I think its a little embarrassing.

Is there any proof that Leopard has more problems that Tiger that is not anecdotal?

Czachorski wrote:

Is there any proof that Leopard has more problems that Tiger that is not anecdotal?

Is there any proof that Leopard has the same?

StaticAge wrote:

Czachorski wrote:

Is there any proof that Leopard has more problems that Tiger that is not anecdotal?

Is there any proof that Leopard has the same?

I was not the one making the contention regarding Leopards problems.  If you are going to use anecdotal evidence to make a case, and then draw general conclusion regarding the quality of the OS for them, then the fallacy of that is going to be pointed out.

Is there any evidence to disprove this theory:  Leopard has the same or fewer issues as Tiger, but the perception is that it is worse because Apple is moving more seats of Leopard than they did of Tiger.

robco wrote:

I like Spaces, the unified look of the windows and such. I just hate the new Dock. It's needless eye candy. The reflections are distracting and the blue light isn't as easy to see, it blends in too much. And I'm not really sure what useful purpose the translucent menubar serves (thought the ability to adjust opacity in Terminal is nice). At the very least, would it have killed Apple to put checkboxes in Dock preferences to choose the style the user would like to have?

Oh, and the monochromatic folders, they suck. I liked the old folders with the color icons, it was easy to tell which was which at a glance. With the new look, I have to squint to tell by looking at it. A step back in usability for the sake of looking cool. Again, why can't I choose from a set of icons?

You like many of the new changes, I and several others do not. Which goes back to the point of allowing for the UI (look and behavior) to able to be customized to a particular user's preference rather than forcing everyone into the same box.

And to be fair. Leopard broke compatibility with a lot of apps. It wasn't nearly as seamless as the upgrade to Tiger.

1) I still disagree about the Dock. I don't think that something is needless eye candy when it looks so much better to me. Again, I had the Tiger Dock set to auot-hide and I switched that off after the upgrade to Leopard. I think the Leopard Dock is head and shoulders above the Tiger Dock in looks.

2) I agree about the menu. That doesn't really make any sense at all and I don't think I've heard anyone say that they would rather have the transparency there. Someone please correct me if you prefer the new look. However, transparent menus is not new. The menus in Leopard are just MORE transparent than those in Tiger.

3) I agree about the folders. They seem strange, especially given the new huge size of icons in Quick Look and Cover Flow.

4) Tiger broke compatibility as well. I just don't recall Tiger being so much smoother as many of you seem to have adjusted your memories to believe.

As you can see I have agreed with some of your points but I still think the positive changes far outweigh the negative ones so far. We'll see what happens over the next few months but I think it is only going to get better.

Frank

StaticAge wrote:

Czachorski wrote:

StaticAge wrote:

Is there any proof that Leopard has the same?

I was not the one making the contention regarding Leopards problems.  If you are going to use anecdotal evidence to make a case, and then draw general conclusion regarding the quality of the OS for them, then the fallacy of that is going to be pointed out.

Is there any evidence to disprove this theory:  Leopard has the same or fewer issues as Tiger, but the perception is that it is worse because Apple is moving more seats of Leopard than they did of Tiger.

That just sounds like an excuse to me, it doesnt address any of the issues, it just dismisses them by declaring they dont really matter because its a small percent. Like I've said before- I had a brand new machine, and it was upgrading to Leopard that began problems for me, on a fresh out of the box machine. The evidence is personal experience, which is first hand and immediate. If you go to a dentist complaining of a toothache and he tells you its no big deal because most people arent having that problem, he surely doesnt, what evidence do you have besides anecdotal blah blah bla, its time to switch dentists. When people talk about their actual experiences and you just make excuses, it just sounds like you dont have anything to offer.

I love Apple, I'm not trolling here, I've used Mac for years. Why cant I rightly complain about problems I've had and perceptions I have about it without you criticizing ME? I didnt release the product, I just bought it.

You can complain and have every right to but your analogy misses the point in this particular situation.

1) We aren't the dentist, Apple is. So, if they were responding in the manner you say then you have a legitimate complaint. The way we respond has nothing to do with your analogy because we didn't sell you the OS and we can't fix it for you.

2) I don't think Czachorski was dismissing his complaint outright. What he was dismissing was his claim that because of his particular problems that meant that Leopard was the worst OS Apple ever released. And I will and did jump right on that bandwagon disputing that. Are people having problems? Yes. Are some of them pretty severe problems? Yes. Does this make it the worst OS ever released? I don't think so. Maybe you do but I think it is legitimate to dispute that assertion, which is what Czachorski was doing.

Frank

Last edited by frankly (2007-12-02 8:35 pm)

StaticAge wrote:

frankly wrote:

You can complain and have every right to but your analogy misses the point in this particular situation.

1) We aren't the dentist, Apple is. So, if they were responding in the manner you say then you have a legitimate complaint. The way we respond has nothing to do with your analogy because we didn't sell you the OS and we can't fix it for you.

2) I don't think Czachorski was dismissing his complaint outright. What he was dismissing was his claim that because of his particular problems that meant that Leopard was the worst OS Apple ever released. And I will and did jump right on that bandwagon disputing that. Are people having problems? Yes. Are some of them pretty severe problems? Yes. Does this make it the worst OS ever released? I don't think so. Maybe you do but I think it is legitimate to dispute that assertion, which is what Czachorski was doing.

Frank

I didnt say it was the worst OS released, I said this is the wrong OS to brag about with smarmy ads which make me a little embarrassed when people who dont use Apple ask me "didnt you have problems with Leopard?" and I agreed with some of the article. And I also think there are more complaints than normal and I dont think the excuse offered is solid evidence and is mostly conjecture itself.

You were replying to Czachorski and saying that he was wrong to respond to Daniel the way that he was. Well Daniel did call it the worst OS ever released by Apple. I never said you did. Czachorski never said you did. Please reread my response above.

Also, perhaps you didn't have any problems with Tiger and therefore were not in the Apple forums on on MacFixIt, etc. However, since I tend to upgrade either immediately upon the release of new software or very close to it I ALWAYS check these forums and no matter if it is a new version of OS X or some other upgrade, there are ALWAYS problems. Perhaps it seems like there are more this time because they are happening to you. For example, you see how personally you take it when your friend busts on you after seeing the Apple commercial.

I am in no way trying to diminish the fact that you had and are having problems. I am simply saying that there are always problems with software releases. I am also not saying that this makes it okay. It would be great if there were no problems. However, since that is not the case I tend to make my judgements based on how critical they are, how many people they affect, and how quickly (or not) the company addresses them.

Frank

StaticAge wrote:

Anecdotally speaking, doesnt the fact that this sort of argument is an issue in it self sort of indicate that there are more problems with this release than with others? There are more articles and reviews talking about problems, there appears to be more peole talking about problems, there are more people making the claim that more people are making the claim that there are more problems, and there are more discussions like this one trying to convince people that its no worse. Would this even be something people would bother arguing about if there werent a real phenomenon occuring?

Actually no. The fact is, there are a lot more positive articles about Leopard than there were about Tiger too. And I mean a LOT more. Have you seen all the press coverage? So, by your logic that would mean that Leopard were a lot better release than Tiger. So, anecdotally I could say the exact opposite, but I won't make that mistake. I will instead say that some people are having problems. That much I know. I will also so that some people are not having problems. I know that as well. How many fall on each side I don't know for sure.

The bottom line is that there are probably a lot of people that are both having problem and not having problems that we simply won't hear from. They don't frequent places like this. They don't have columns in newspapers or magazines.

The problem is that your perspective is skewed because you are having problems. This is the case with Daniel as well. The people that are dismissing your claims have a skewed perspective as well because they haven't had problems. Both sides seem to be seeing this from their particular world and not looking at the big picture. Of course, part of the problem is that neither side has facts or figures about the entire picture. So that is when it gets into a shouting match.

Frank

StaticAge wrote:

... I personally wish Apple at least was a little apologetic about some of the problems that a lot of people have had.

When you are a publicly traded company that has a responsibility to shareholders you have to be very careful about stuff like that. If they were to apologize that could be construed as admitting wrongdoing which could open them up to lawsuits. It is not as trivial a thing as you are making it out to be.

I think they should fix any problems pronto but I think apologizing would be a bad idea. Notice when the apologized for the iPhone price drop they accompanied it with compensation for the early adopters. Remember that lawsuits still popped up after that.

Frank

I knew something up when my Leopardized Mac Mini decided to recognize my Macbook Pro and seemingly itself as Windows computers on the local network. Still can't figure that out.

I've had at least one kernel panic per day when actually using the mini.

My Western Digital drive doesn't always mount with Firewire now, so I've resorted to using USB.

These three reasons right now keep me from installing leopard on my main machine.

The "maximize" button in Safari in Tiger very nicely always increases the width of the page to the exact width that is needed by the current open page. In Leopard this button seems to be a toggle between two preferred page sizes. Although this is nitpicking, it's a perfect example to the UI changes that simply drive me nuts.

I have no experience or interest in Time Machine, Spaces, Dashboard, Cover Flow in the finder, mail stationary, video chat effects, photo booth backdrops, stacks, boot camp, "quicklook," or the advertised parental controls.

On a positive note:

Dictionary.app has a wikipedia plugin now, and this is GENIUS.

Spotlight lets you quicklaunch things so easily now, Command-Space, type in Safari, just press return, and you've launched it.

Bluetooth devices seem to behave better for some reason, I don't know if Leopard receives credit for that or not.

Wireless networks are identified in the menubar as encrypted or not, so I don't have to open kisMAC to find a worthwhile internet connection.

Last edited by rufio (2007-12-03 3:11 am)

Czachorski wrote:

Daniel wrote:

There are unanswered posts all over Apple's discussion boards about all the issues I listed.  I seem to be the only person unfortunate enough to be smitten with them all simultaneously, but yes, I think overall Leopard's quality has been vastly overstated by the media.

So you think you're experience is typical, and you think that reasonable proof of that is an on-line message board designed to help people with problems?

Please re-examine my post wherein I answered your question, rather than just repeating your question with dripping sarcasm.