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He's saying that Apple installed Safari on people's computers in the same way that spyware manufacturers install spyware, by prompting people to install it by making them think that what they're downloading is somehow related of or is a part of a product they're already using.

It's unnecessary and it's wasting my time. That i have installed one product from a company does not mean that I want to install every product from said company, even if said company is Apple.

MacZiMiZer wrote:

Personally, you should always be glancing at everything you click, no matter where it's coming from.  It's hitting "ok" without a care in the world that spreads malware and such.

If you don't turn off XP autoupdate, it will automatically download updates without asking, and then prompt you to restart, minimizing most programs every I don't know 5-10 minutes again asking you to restart.

Smart people set Auto-Update to check at a convenient time like 3am so the update and restart dont interfere with use.

MacZiMiZer wrote:

This also isn't new, iSync and a few other programs could be downloaded on older macs whn they came out, possibly still now, you just won't notice since new computers of course come with the standard Apple apps.

Proporting that suddenly Apple is doing some horrendous thing against the psychological security of the internet compared to other companies is a far stretch to me.

This isn't hidden like Sony's semi-spyware, and this isn't some swiss cheese unsecure software either, where as a handful of M$ updates have been.

Does the Microsoft Updater install entirely new applications unbidden?

maleko wrote:

I agree 100% with what he's saying, but so many windows programs do that type of thing.  I have plenty of Windows using friends with a desktop full of shortcuts to stupid programs that they have never opened.  The least Apple could do is uncheck the box by default.

That was my point, I'm not saying it's great, yes Apple could have found a nicer (though less effective) method.   But this isn't some huge crack in the ozone, or something new.

Donkey Butter wrote:

it should not list it as an update unless it is an update. it's a flat out lie and apple should be ashamed of themselves.

amen

Some people in the blog world are taking this entirely out of proportion. Should Apple have made it clearer this is a new piece of software and made it easier to ignore (a lot of people miss the ignore feature in the update menu)? Sure. Is it an affront to human life and all we stand for? No. This weird outrage is actually doing the exact opposite of what they profess.

Yes, I'm going to back up what I just said. Okay so you have a bunch of bloggers taking issue with something. Instead of offering positive feedback to Apple they go the route of getting outraged and resort to massive hyperbole. Normal people read this, see that bloggers are getting mad, and get mad too because the bloggers are mad (I've seen a few examples of this already). So you got angry bloggers and angry every day users that are just standing around getting outraged at Apple because they were asked if they wanted to install Safari and no one is telling them how to fix the problem.

That last bit there is the problem. They're in an environment of fear. They think that the the sky is falling because all the people they've been told were so smart and could solve problems aren't solving the problem. Instead they're telling everyone that this is the worst thing in the world that could happen to them and they should be afraid. Why should they be afraid? Because they're too stupid understand what is going on (I've actually have a few people admit as much to me, that they think a majority of the windows users are stupid and they need to be protected from Apple "sneaking" things on their computer...I thought this was about Apple just being annoying, not them trying to trick everyone).

I'm just baffled by how the bloggers chose such a stupid thing to rag on Apple about. I'm all for pointing out flaws or missteps but at least do it in a helpful way. This is just grandstanding to try to promote their own software by creating an environment of fear and distrust.

NAG wrote:

This weird outrage is actually doing the exact opposite of what they profess.

Yes, I'm going to back up what I just said. Okay so you have a bunch of bloggers taking issue with something. Instead of offering positive feedback to Apple they go the route of getting outraged and resort to massive hyperbole. Normal people read this, see that bloggers are getting mad, and get mad too because the bloggers are mad (I've seen a few examples of this already). So you got angry bloggers and angry every day users that are just standing around getting outraged at Apple because they were asked if they wanted to install Safari and no one is telling them how to fix the problem.

Ah, but if the bloggers have succeeded in getting average users angry, then surely this mass of disillusioned users has much more arm-twisting potential than a few angry bloggers (even if they are just drones).  I also disagree that Apple needs to be told how to fix the problem.  What they need is a reason to fix the problem, amidst the success their strategy has received -- an angry mob might do the trick.

However, I agree with the greater point that this is being taken out of proportion.  This sort of thing is standard practice in the PC world, and isn't unprecedented even for Apple.  For example, downloading QuickTime (for Windows) requires opting-out of both iTunes and Software Update.  While sneaky on Apple's part, I don't see what this really has to do with security as the Mozilla CEO argued, and I believe it has everything to do with Mozilla CEO being pissed at the impact this will have on Mozilla's market share.  Nevertheless, I still hope something comes of this.  Maybe it can serve as an example for other companies.

Last edited by Mr. T (2008-03-24 11:46 pm)

Sort of.  While clearly a case of sour grapes on Mozilla's part, I believe that Mozilla might succeed in its mission to alter the path Apple has chosen (which I believe is worse).  The fallout might possibly force other companies to change as well.

FutureDreamz wrote:

true, it isn't an update.
but compared to IE, it's an upgrade.

And how much have you used Safari for Windows?

Last time I went to install Firefox on a PC, they had changed their business model anyway. I skipped it.

NAG wrote:

So the benevolent overlords of Mozilla have to resort to the same trickery and environment of fear that they loath to achieve their goal? Isn't that a bit like destroying something in order to save it?

Mozilla is doing nothing remotely close to the same thing. I have never had Mozilla push other software on my machine by default with an automatic update. 

The guy is pushing fear because there is plenty to be afraid of with acts like this. Today its safari, tomorrow who the hell knows what they'll decide to push out. Add to the fact that another major company such as Apple doing this is just sending a message downstream to smaller ISVs that this is an OK practice in the industry. Its NOT.

I don't allow any MS software to automatically update because I can't trust that company when it comes to what is installed on my machine. Thats a sad state of affairs and now Apple has joined the same ranks.

Bat wrote:

FutureDreamz wrote:

true, it isn't an update.
but compared to IE, it's an upgrade.

And how much have you used Safari for Windows?

Agreed, I haven't downloaded 3.1 yet, but 3 was so bad I took it off.  I don't have any Apple software (other then drivers obviously) on my windows partition.  Apple is just downright bad at writing windows software.  Mozilla Firefox is the best windows browser IMO, although I do use Safari on the Mac.

maleko wrote:

Bat wrote:

FutureDreamz wrote:

true, it isn't an update.
but compared to IE, it's an upgrade.

And how much have you used Safari for Windows?

Agreed, I haven't downloaded 3.1 yet, but 3 was so bad I took it off.  I don't have any Apple software (other then drivers obviously) on my windows partition.  Apple is just downright bad at writing windows software.  Mozilla Firefox is the best windows browser IMO, although I do use Safari on the Mac.

I have reached the same conclusion.  I know that Apple is at least ignoring much of the Windows UI library --ironically enough.  I would not be at all surprised to find out that Apple is using some derivative of Yellow Box.