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#1 2008-04-02 9:00 am

jeff-o
Artist's Rendition:
From: Waterloo, Ontario
Registered: 1999-04-10
Posts: 10020
Website

Spare me the naturopathic hooey and crack my back already!

My wife and I just completed our first visit with a chiropractor last night.  I must say, we were both disappointed and insulted by the whole thing.

The back story:  My wife has been suffering from lower back pain ever since the birth of our first child, nearly 8 months ago.  It's likely that this extremely strenuous task, along with the application of an epidural needle, were the main contributors to her back pain.

This past weekend we attended a home show, where one chiropractor had a booth set up where they were doing free preliminary exams.  We thought, "why not?" and they scanned her neck with some sort of magical infrared detector that apparently can detect vertebrae that are out of alignment.  Not surprisingly, they detected some extreme subluxation in her neck, and were advised to come in to the office for a more thorough exam.

She went this past Monday, and X-rays of her spine showed "phase 1" subluxation in her neck as well as an S-curve in the rest of her spine.  The doc advised her to come to an "information meeting" the next day (yesterday) for more info.

Well.  I knew we were in trouble when I saw the sign on the window:  Chiropractic and Naturopathic" something or other.  The meeting was attended by about ten other people, in the tiny reception area of the office.  The meeting started with a ridiculous introduction of the chiro by his receptionist, I felt as if they were expecting applause when he finally trotted out of an exam room.  Then followed a 30 minute slideshow on chiropractic, where claims as broad as the ability to prevent cancer and heart disease were presented.  Apparently, the spinal cord is the center of the human body, and any pressure placed on the spinal cord by subluxation of the vertebrae "cuts off the flow of information" between the brain and various other systems of the body, which leads to the development of a number of major diseases.  Riiiight.  Throughout the presentation, we were asked dozens of rhetorical questions (which the other attendees felt compelled to answer), stuff like "who wants to lead a healthier life?" To wrap everything up, he concluded with a touching story about a young man suffering from Crohn's disease, visited a chiropractor, and was cured nine months later.  That young man was (gasp!) this very same chiropractor.  He even managed to choke up at the end, a nice touch.

After this was over, each person was taken to an exam room, where they were shown their x-rays from a few days ago.  We were shown x-rays and thermal scans (complete with pretty coloured bars to show severity of pressure) and were advised to get things corrected immediately.  My wife then received her first "adjustment," three whole minutes of back-cracking that we later found out cost us $35.

And now, for the cost.  A year of treatment would cost us about $2500, which apparently is pretty reasonable.  But what turned us off what the hard sell; they really wanted us to write them a cheque for the whole year right then and there.  Ummm, how about "no?"  I honestly think they were thrown for a loop when we didn't agree right off the bat.  Instead, we asked very difficult questions, like "how soon can we expect to see some improvement?","Will her back be pain free after the year?" and "can you fix her back pain?"  Our cleverly disarming questions were met with responses like "We'll check her progress after 12 weeks to see if the treatment is going according to plan","Nearly 100% certain" and "we can achieve out goal."  Sure, they promise a cure for cancer, but can't say if her back pain will be gone?

The whole thing just stunk.  We are both intelligent, well educated people and the presentations were so dumbed-down it was insulting.  They were riddled with scientific inaccuracies, misinformation and skewed data.  Perhaps we were at the wrong meeting, since everyone else was blown away.  We felt deceived, and the high-pressure sales tactics and FUD ("you're a 9.5 on a scale of 10!!") being used to push us into a rushed decision were bordering on scam-artist territory.

So I ask, is this what I can expect from every chiropractor we visit?  Has anyone experienced something similar?  Has anyone actually had a chiroprator fix their back pain?  At this point, the taste in my mouth is so sour I'm temped to gulp a gallon of Listerine, buy my wife an electric back massager, and call it a day.  Heck, she said the five minutes using a back massager we tried at the home show did more for her than the $35 adjustment.


"I'd rather be told, 'Have a nice day.' by someone who doesn't mean it, than 'F*** you!' by someone who does." - Lewis Black

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#2 2008-04-02 9:01 am

jeff-o
Artist's Rendition:
From: Waterloo, Ontario
Registered: 1999-04-10
Posts: 10020
Website

Re: Spare me the naturopathic hooey and crack my back already!

Oh, also, sorry about the long post.  I needed to vent.


"I'd rather be told, 'Have a nice day.' by someone who doesn't mean it, than 'F*** you!' by someone who does." - Lewis Black

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#3 2008-04-02 9:19 am

freecat
Not funny online
From: West of the East Coast
Registered: 1999-04-04
Posts: 5765
Website

Re: Spare me the naturopathic hooey and crack my back already!

I just lay on the floor and soon my kids start crawling, walking, and jumping on my back. Occasionally their attacks are too enthusiastic, but generally it makes my back feel better.

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#4 2008-04-02 10:01 am

user
Your plastic pal who's fun to be with
From: I'm not getting you down, am I
Registered: 2001-10-15
Posts: 16027

Re: Spare me the naturopathic hooey and crack my back already!

My impression is that there are some chiros who are good because they limit the scope of their treatments, but the clowns who make the exaggerated claims ought to be run out of town.


Aw, he's no fun, he fell right over.

Unless you become as little children, there's no way you will believe this crap.

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#5 2008-04-02 10:33 am

Fracai
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From: St. Elsewhere
Registered: 2000-05-25
Posts: 2835

Re: Spare me the naturopathic hooey and crack my back already!

If the chiropractor intends to limit treatment to a short period of time and doesn't go into any woo, they're probably fine.  Subluxation completely baseless to begin with.  The Skeptic's Guide to The Universe had a pretty decent interview with a "reform chiropractor" and their forum usually has some good discussion.

Next time ask yourself if you want to let someone manipulate, or even near, your spine (your spine!) who also believes they can cure cancer and any other ailment.

I'd stick with a physical therapist.

Or in this case go with your anecdote, the back massager did more, is cheaper, and won't try to sell you herbs.


   i am jack's amusing sig file
        http://alum.wpi.edu/~arno/i/s.png
Satellite Lot :: Second Summer

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#6 2008-04-02 10:38 am

Fracai
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From: St. Elsewhere
Registered: 2000-05-25
Posts: 2835

Re: Spare me the naturopathic hooey and crack my back already!

Spare me the naturopathic hooey and crack my back already!

I also just have to laugh at the title.


   i am jack's amusing sig file
        http://alum.wpi.edu/~arno/i/s.png
Satellite Lot :: Second Summer

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#7 2008-04-02 10:41 am

thelegendofjohn
I know.
From: A Basement On The Hill.
Registered: 2006-08-20
Posts: 1390

Re: Spare me the naturopathic hooey and crack my back already!

I would go to a different chiropractor.  I've been going to one for about 4 years, on and off.  I originally went in for issues I was having with migraines, somebody suggested I go to a chiropractor and I since I was having no luck anywhere else, I figured I would try it.  He was able to help me, and also fixed a couple of issues with my wrist.

I've never come across any of that weird showmanship and pressure you described from your chiropractor.  Also, my adjustments usually take around a half hour, he works on my spine by feel, no magic lights like you said.

Chiropractors are definitely not for everyone, but I would give another one a shot before you write them off all together.  I feel better all around when I am seeing mine.

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#8 2008-04-02 11:05 am

jeff-o
Artist's Rendition:
From: Waterloo, Ontario
Registered: 1999-04-10
Posts: 10020
Website

Re: Spare me the naturopathic hooey and crack my back already!

Hmmm, I think we'll have to look into PT and other chiropractors.  I'll probably lead off the first conversation with, "The first guy tried to tell me he could cure cancer.  Do us both a favour and spare me the BS, just fix my wife's back."  If they're amenable to that, I think we'll get along just fine.

I'm also really glad that this guy didn't try to sell me any drugs or herbal supplements (in fact they discourage meds and emphasize the body's ability to heal itself).  If he'd tried that, I'm not sure I would have lasted past the presentation.


"I'd rather be told, 'Have a nice day.' by someone who doesn't mean it, than 'F*** you!' by someone who does." - Lewis Black

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#9 2008-04-02 11:32 am

Denali
Chuck Baldwin McCain OR John McCain for hope
From: Mile High, CO
Registered: 2005-06-29
Posts: 1080
Website

Re: Spare me the naturopathic hooey and crack my back already!

I use to go to a chiropractor who was a nutritionist, and knew kinesiology.  I learned so much from him.  He spent anywhere between 5 min and 45 min with me depending on what was wrong.  He told me about foods I should and shouldn't eat and why.  Most of the time I felt great after seeing him.  The way he put it was to stop eating such and such take a vitamin and come back in 3 days if I still had problems.  He became a very good friend of mine.  He was later killed in a car accident and I haven't felt the same since smile  though I do still practice what he has taught me.

Find a different chiropractor.  What you told me sounds kind of like a scam.  I have never heard of a chiropractor asking for a years worth of treatments in advance and it just smells bad.  Your wife may only need a month or two of treatments, but they won't know, or care as they have your money already.  So it may be a good idea, just a matter of finding the right one.

Good luck, and don't go back to that guy

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#10 2008-04-02 11:40 am

jeff-o
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From: Waterloo, Ontario
Registered: 1999-04-10
Posts: 10020
Website

Re: Spare me the naturopathic hooey and crack my back already!

They can do monthly or per-visit payments, but you end up saving about $500 by pre-paying.  Perhaps I would have pushed for the per-visit plan if I hadn't been so creeped out by everything else.


"I'd rather be told, 'Have a nice day.' by someone who doesn't mean it, than 'F*** you!' by someone who does." - Lewis Black

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#11 2008-04-02 11:47 am

Fracai
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From: St. Elsewhere
Registered: 2000-05-25
Posts: 2835

Re: Spare me the naturopathic hooey and crack my back already!

I think the problem with saying "You can't cure cancer, just fix my wife's back" is that it's like going to a psychic and saying "My cousin Joe just died in a boating accident" and being amazed when they tell ask if the letter J has anything to do with water.

It'll put them on guard not to be too blatant with the woo, and to follow the more subtle tactics of pushing "alternative medicine".

And sure the body is great at healing itself, but does that mean it can cure everything without any help from medication?  There are some areas where medicine will be vital to a recovery and there will be naturopaths, etc. who will say they are unnecessary and just infringe on the body's natural healing.


thelegendofjohn has a pretty typical story as well.  I don't intend to pick on you or anything, but there's one line that specifically stands out.  "...and since I was having no luck anywhere else, I figured I would try it."  I'd ask what else you had tried so far.  Had you tried conventional MDs?  What was it the chiropractor did that you associate with curing the migraines?  What else did the chiropractor do before reaching success?  Again, I'm mostly just curious to hear what exactly you found effective.


From the research I've done it doesn't seem that chiropractors offer anything of substance that you won't find from a medical doctor and what they do offer that is different is questionable efficacy and without the scientific research to back it up.


   i am jack's amusing sig file
        http://alum.wpi.edu/~arno/i/s.png
Satellite Lot :: Second Summer

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#12 2008-04-02 11:52 am

Fracai
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From: St. Elsewhere
Registered: 2000-05-25
Posts: 2835

Re: Spare me the naturopathic hooey and crack my back already!

Denali wrote:

I use to go to a chiropractor who was a nutritionist, and knew kinesiology.

Was it Kinesiology or Applied Kinesiology.


   i am jack's amusing sig file
        http://alum.wpi.edu/~arno/i/s.png
Satellite Lot :: Second Summer

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#13 2008-04-02 11:54 am

jeff-o
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From: Waterloo, Ontario
Registered: 1999-04-10
Posts: 10020
Website

Re: Spare me the naturopathic hooey and crack my back already!

My wife's doctor basically said to wait for it to fix itself.  She's been taking Tylenol almost nightly for 8 months as she waits for the pain to go away.  Massages to the affected area helped, so we figured that chiropractic treatment would be a more "permanent" fix.


"I'd rather be told, 'Have a nice day.' by someone who doesn't mean it, than 'F*** you!' by someone who does." - Lewis Black

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#14 2008-04-02 12:23 pm

user
Your plastic pal who's fun to be with
From: I'm not getting you down, am I
Registered: 2001-10-15
Posts: 16027

Re: Spare me the naturopathic hooey and crack my back already!

Sounds like a DIY project to me.


Aw, he's no fun, he fell right over.

Unless you become as little children, there's no way you will believe this crap.

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#15 2008-04-02 2:44 pm

Fracai
Evacipate
From: St. Elsewhere
Registered: 2000-05-25
Posts: 2835

Re: Spare me the naturopathic hooey and crack my back already!

jeff-o wrote:

My wife's doctor basically said to wait for it to fix itself.  She's been taking Tylenol almost nightly for 8 months as she waits for the pain to go away.  Massages to the affected area helped, so we figured that chiropractic treatment would be a more "permanent" fix.

I wouldn't suggest against getting a second opinion if you've only been given the "wait" line and he won't take another look.

Keep in mind that any chiropractor that wants you to keep going back for treatment for a year and more, probably isn't going to provide a "permanent" fix.


   i am jack's amusing sig file
        http://alum.wpi.edu/~arno/i/s.png
Satellite Lot :: Second Summer

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#16 2008-04-02 2:54 pm

macnuke
just a plano guy
Moderator
From: North Dallas 40
Registered: 2004-05-16
Posts: 7132

Re: Spare me the naturopathic hooey and crack my back already!

think of his wallet... the more you go... the more he makes.
and if he won't crack you and be done with it.... I really would go to another chiro.
otherwise.... you may as well pray to the Ceiling Cat to heal you.


oh yeah... and take your tylenol.

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#17 2008-04-02 3:41 pm

jeff-o
Artist's Rendition:
From: Waterloo, Ontario
Registered: 1999-04-10
Posts: 10020
Website

Re: Spare me the naturopathic hooey and crack my back already!

Fracai wrote:

Keep in mind that any chiropractor that wants you to keep going back for treatment for a year and more, probably isn't going to provide a "permanent" fix.

That's what we're thinking - they claim that it takes time for the new position to set, which I can understand.  But, why sign everyone up for a year?  Surely every person is different, shouldn't the time be different too?  I don't want to pay for a year if it should only take six months.  It's just so hard to trust anything they say.


"I'd rather be told, 'Have a nice day.' by someone who doesn't mean it, than 'F*** you!' by someone who does." - Lewis Black

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#18 2008-04-02 4:29 pm

Kendall
Member
From: Saskatoon, SK, Canada
Registered: 1999-03-25
Posts: 1118

Re: Spare me the naturopathic hooey and crack my back already!

jeff-o wrote:

Fracai wrote:

Keep in mind that any chiropractor that wants you to keep going back for treatment for a year and more, probably isn't going to provide a "permanent" fix.

That's what we're thinking - they claim that it takes time for the new position to set, which I can understand.  But, why sign everyone up for a year?  Surely every person is different, shouldn't the time be different too?  I don't want to pay for a year if it should only take six months.  It's just so hard to trust anything they say.

A good chiropractor will treat you until you're better, not for a specific time. Find another doc.

And if you MUST take pain medication, Ibuprofen is better for the inflamation (if you don't have stomach problems). Even better, ice it!

MANY people on MacLife.com are anti-chiropractic but I can tell you, from personal experience, that a good chiropractor is worth their weight in gold. I have had two problems that medical doctors said could NOT be fixed that chiropractic care fixed up in just a few sessions. I hope you have the same luck.

Oh, and make sure you check to see if your health plans at work cover it. Chiropractic in Canada is no where near as expensive as in the U.S. but what the heck, if you can get it paid for, all the better.

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#19 2008-04-02 4:55 pm

punkgeek
born of frustration
From: Dew Drop Inn
Registered: 2001-05-28
Posts: 3704

Re: Spare me the naturopathic hooey and crack my back already!

Don't bother with chiropractic.

I wasted way too much money over 4 different chiropractors in two years. I've been seeing a physiotherapist on and off again for a few months and I feel better than I ever did seeing a chiro.


"I also use lowercase christian when referring to her and people like her.  To be Christian, they'd have to follow the example of Christ.  These people are so un-Christlike, it's not even funny."

- robco

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#20 2008-04-02 5:08 pm

justine
Elitist Beer Lover
Moderator
From: Sac'to
Registered: 1999-12-23
Posts: 28763
Website

Re: Spare me the naturopathic hooey and crack my back already!

thelegendofjohn wrote:

I feel better all around when I am seeing mine.

So basically, as long as you keep seeing them, you feel fine? No permanent solution to your problems? Just a symptom reliever?

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#21 2008-04-02 5:46 pm

Chickenhawk
Snark Snark Snark Snark
From: Being Snarky
Registered: 2005-06-01
Posts: 5816

Re: Spare me the naturopathic hooey and crack my back already!

My dad has been seeing an Acupuncturist for his back.


The recent medical controversy over whether vaccinations cause autism reveals a habit of human cognition—thinking anecdotally comes naturally, whereas thinking scientifically does not. -- Michael Shermer

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#22 2008-04-02 6:08 pm

Malkin
I killed my dinner with karate
Moderator
From: The Zenith City
Registered: 1999-02-22
Posts: 10070
Website

Re: Spare me the naturopathic hooey and crack my back already!

If you want to spend money, hire a personal trainer and learn to stretch and strengthen those back muscles.  It will probably do the most good in the long term.

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#23 2008-04-02 7:18 pm

DukeofNuke
Free Radical
From: Hazard
Registered: 2003-05-02
Posts: 2563

Re: Spare me the naturopathic hooey and crack my back already!

My Ex never got over the back pain following her epidural with rugrat2
I think the anesthesiologist hit the nerve

Epidural FAQ wrote:

- Persistent, chronic backache is significantly greater among women who have epidurals during labor (MacArthur et al, "British Medical Journal" 301:9-12 [1990]).

http://www.fensende.com/~swnymph/Epidural.html#stories
scroll down about 1/3 page

try Aleve

massage therapy, maybe


"If you want to kick a tiger in the ass, you better have a plan for dealing with his teeth."
- Tom Clancy

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#24 2008-04-02 8:22 pm

thelegendofjohn
I know.
From: A Basement On The Hill.
Registered: 2006-08-20
Posts: 1390

Re: Spare me the naturopathic hooey and crack my back already!

Fracai wrote:

thelegendofjohn has a pretty typical story as well.  I don't intend to pick on you or anything, but there's one line that specifically stands out.  "...and since I was having no luck anywhere else, I figured I would try it."  I'd ask what else you had tried so far.  Had you tried conventional MDs?  What was it the chiropractor did that you associate with curing the migraines?  What else did the chiropractor do before reaching success?  Again, I'm mostly just curious to hear what exactly you found effective.

Without getting into my entire medical history, yes I did try multiple conventional MD's for my migraine issues before I saw the chiropractor.

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#25 2008-04-02 8:24 pm

thelegendofjohn
I know.
From: A Basement On The Hill.
Registered: 2006-08-20
Posts: 1390

Re: Spare me the naturopathic hooey and crack my back already!

I might add I'm not trying to say it was a miracle cure or anything like that but a few conventional MD's had no success and the chiropractor had noticeable success after a few visits.

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