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#1 2008-05-28 5:19 pm

radarman
Member
Registered: 2005-02-28
Posts: 3618

Interesting take on the US super-power status

An oil-addicted ex-superpower
By Michael T Klare

Nineteen years ago, the fall of the Berlin Wall effectively eliminated the Soviet Union as the world's other superpower. Yes, the USSR as a political entity stumbled on for another two years, but it was clearly an ex-superpower from the moment it lost control over its satellites in Eastern Europe.

Less than a month ago, the United States similarly lost its claim to superpower status when a barrel of crude oil roared past US$110 on the international market, gasoline prices crossed the $3.50 threshold at American pumps, and diesel fuel topped $4. As was true of the USSR following the dismantling of the Berlin Wall, the US will no doubt continue to stumble on like the superpower it once was; but as the nation's economy continues to be eviscerated to pay for its daily oil fix, it, too, will be seen by increasing numbers of savvy observers as an ex-superpower-in-the-making.

That the fall of the Berlin Wall spelled the erasure of the Soviet Union's superpower status was obvious to international observers at the time. After all, the USSR visibly ceased to exercise dominion over an empire (and an associated military-industrial complex) encompassing nearly half of Europe and much of Central Asia. The relationship between rising oil prices and the obliteration of America's superpower status is, however, hardly as self-evident. So let's consider the connection.

Dry hole superpower
The fact is, America's wealth and power has long rested on the abundance of cheap petroleum. The United States was, for a long time, the world's leading producer of oil, supplying its own needs while generating a healthy surplus for export.

Oil was the basis for the rise of the first giant multinational corporations in the US, notably John D Rockefeller's Standard Oil Company (now reconstituted as Exxon Mobil, the world's wealthiest publicly traded corporation). Abundant, exceedingly affordable petroleum was also responsible for the emergence of the American automotive and trucking industries, the flourishing of the domestic airline industry, the development of the petrochemical and plastics industries, the suburbanization of America, and the mechanization of its agriculture. Without cheap and abundant oil, the United States would never have experienced the historic economic expansion of the post-World War II era.

No less important was the role of abundant petroleum in fueling the global reach of US military power. For all the talk of America's growing reliance on computers, advanced sensors, and stealth technology to prevail in warfare, it has been oil above all that gave the US military its capacity to "project power" onto distant battlefields like Iraq and Afghanistan. Every Humvee, tank, helicopter, and jet fighter requires its daily ration of petroleum, without which America's technology-driven military would be forced to abandon the battlefield. No surprise, then, that the US Department of Defense is the world's single-biggest consumer of petroleum, using more of it every day than the entire nation of Sweden.

From the end of World War II through the height of the Cold War, the US claim to superpower status rested on a vast sea of oil. As long as most of our oil came from domestic sources and the price remained reasonably low, the American economy thrived and the annual cost of deploying vast armies abroad was relatively manageable. But that sea has been shrinking since the 1950s. Domestic oil production reached a peak in 1970 and has been in decline ever since - with a growing dependency on imported oil as the result. When it came to reliance on imports, the United States crossed the 50% threshold in 1998 and now has passed 65%.

Though few fully realized it, this represented a significant erosion of sovereign independence even before the price of a barrel of crude soared above $110. By now, we are transferring such staggering sums yearly to foreign oil producers, who are using it to gobble up valuable American assets, that, whether we know it or not, we have essentially abandoned our claim to superpowerdom.

According to the latest data from the US Department of Energy, the United States is importing 12-14 million barrels of oil per day. At a current price of about $115 per barrel, that's $1.5 billion per day, or $548 billion per year. This represents the single largest contribution to America's balance-of-payments deficit, and is a leading cause for the dollar's ongoing drop in value. If oil prices rise any higher - in response, perhaps, to a new crisis in the Middle East (as might be occasioned by US air strikes on Iran) - our annual import bill could quickly approach three-quarters of a trillion dollars or more per year.

While our economy is being depleted of these funds, at a moment when credit is scarce and economic growth has screeched to a halt, the oil regimes on which we depend for our daily fix are depositing their mountains of accumulating petrodollars in "sovereign wealth funds" (SWFs) - state-controlled investment accounts that buy up prized foreign assets in order to secure non-oil-dependent sources of wealth. At present, these funds are already believed to hold in excess of several trillion dollars; the richest, the Abu Dhabi Investment Authority (ADIA), alone holds $875 billion.

The ADIA first made headlines in November 2007 when it acquired a $7.5 billion stake in Citigroup, America's largest bank holding company. The fund has also made substantial investments in Advanced Micro Systems, a major chip maker, and the Carlyle Group, the private equity giant. Another big SWF, the Kuwait Investment Authority, also acquired a multibillion-dollar stake in Citigroup, along with a $6.6 billion chunk of Merrill Lynch. And these are but the first of a series of major SWF moves that will be aimed at acquiring stakes in top American banks and corporations.

The managers of these funds naturally insist that they have no intention of using their ownership of prime American properties to influence US policy. In time, however, a transfer of economic power of this magnitude cannot help but translate into a transfer of political power as well. Indeed, this prospect has already stirred deep misgivings in Congress. "In the short run, that they [the Middle Eastern SWFs] are investing here is good," Senator Evan Bayh (D-Indiana) recently observed. "But in the long run it is unsustainable. Our power and authority is eroding because of the amounts we are sending abroad for energy ..."

No summer tax holiday for the Pentagon
Foreign ownership of key nodes of our economy is only one sign of fading American superpower status. Oil's impact on the military is another.

Every day, the average GI in Iraq uses approximately 27 gallons of petroleum-based fuels. With some 160,000 American troops in Iraq, that amounts to 4.37 million gallons in daily oil usage, including gasoline for vans and light vehicles, diesel for trucks and armored vehicles, and aviation fuel for helicopters, drones, and fixed-wing aircraft. With US forces paying, as of late April, an average of $3.23 per gallon for these fuels, the Pentagon is already spending approximately $14 million per day on oil ($98 million per week, $5.1 billion per year) to stay in Iraq. Meanwhile, our Iraqi allies, who are expected to receive a windfall of $70 billion this year from the rising price of their oil exports, charge their citizens $1.36 per gallon for gasoline.

When questioned about why Iraqis are paying almost a third less for oil than American forces in their country, senior Iraqi government officials scoff at any suggestion of impropriety. "America has hardly even begun to repay its debt to Iraq," said Abdul Basit, the head of Iraq's Supreme Board of Audit, an independent body that oversees Iraqi governmental expenditures. "This is an immoral request because we didn't ask them to come to Iraq, and before they came in 2003 we didn't have all these needs."

Needless to say, this is not exactly the way grateful clients are supposed to address superpower patrons. "It's totally unacceptable to me that we are spending tens of billions of dollars on rebuilding Iraq while they are putting tens of billions of dollars in banks around the world from oil revenues," said Senator Carl Levin (D-Michigan), chairman of the Armed Services Committee. "It doesn't compute as far as I'm concerned."

Certainly, however, our allies in the region, especially the Sunni kingdoms of Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, and the United Arab Emirates (UAE) that presumably look to Washington to stabilize Iraq and curb the growing power of Shi'ite Iran, are willing to help the Pentagon out by supplying US troops with free or deeply-discounted petroleum. No such luck. Except for some partially subsidized oil supplied by Kuwait, all oil-producing US allies in the region charge us the market rate for petroleum. Take that as a striking reflection of how little credence even countries whose ruling elites have traditionally looked to the US for protection now attach to our supposed superpower status.

Think of this as a strikingly clear-eyed assessment of American power. As far as they're concerned, we're now just another of those hopeless oil addicts driving a monster gas-guzzler up to the pump - and they're perfectly happy to collect our cash which they can then use to cherry-pick our prime assets. So expect no summer tax holidays for the Pentagon, not in the Middle East, anyway.

Worse yet, the US military will need even more oil for the future wars on which the Pentagon is now doing the planning. In this way, the US experience in Iraq has especially worrisome implications. Under the military "transformation" initiated by Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld in 2001, the future US war machine will rely less on "boots on the ground" and ever more on technology.

But technology entails an ever-greater requirement for oil, as the newer weapons sought by Rumsfeld (and now Secretary of Defense Robert Gates) all consume many times more fuel than those they will replace. To put this in perspective: The average GI in Iraq now uses about seven times as much oil per day as GIs did in the first Gulf War less than two decades ago. And every sign indicates that the same ratio of increase will apply to coming conflicts; that the daily cost of fighting will skyrocket; and that the Pentagon's capacity to shoulder multiple foreign military burdens will unravel. Thus are superpowers undone.

Russia's gusher
If anything demonstrates the critical role of oil in determining the fate of superpowers in the current milieu, it is the spectacular reemergence of Russia as a Great Power on the basis of its superior energy balance. Once derided as the humiliated, enfeebled loser in the US-Soviet rivalry, Russia is again a force to be reckoned with in world affairs. It possesses the fastest-growing economy among the G-8 group of major industrial powers, is the world's second leading producer of oil (after Saudi Arabia), and is its top producer of natural gas. Because it produces far more energy than it consumes, Russia exports a substantial portion of its oil and gas to neighboring countries, making it the only Great Power not dependent on other states for its energy needs.

As Russia has become an energy-exporting state, it has moved from the list of has-beens to the front rank of major players. When President Bush first occupied the White House, in February 2001, one of his highest priorities was to downgrade US ties with Russia and annul the various arms-control agreements that had been forged between the two countries by his predecessors, agreements that explicitly conferred equal status on the US and the USSR.

As an indication of how contemptuously the Bush team viewed Russia at that time, Condoleezza Rice, while still an adviser to the Bush presidential campaign, wrote, in the January/February 2000 issue of the influential Foreign Affairs, "US policy ... must recognize that American security is threatened less by Russia's strength than by its weakness and incoherence." Under such circumstances, she continued, there was no need to preserve obsolete relics of the dual superpower past such as the Anti-Ballistic Missile (ABM) Treaty; rather, the focus of US efforts should be on preventing the further erosion of Russian nuclear safeguards and the potential escape of nuclear materials.

In line with this outlook, President Bush believed that he could convert an impoverished and compliant Russia into a major source of oil and natural gas for the United States - with American energy companies running the show. This was the evident aim of the US-Russian "energy dialogue" announced by Bush and Russian President Vladimir Putin in May 2002. But if Bush thought Russia was prepared to turn into a northern version of Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, or Venezuela prior to the arrival of Hugo Chavez, he was to be sorely disappointed.

Putin never permitted American firms to acquire substantial energy assets in Russia. Instead, he presided over a major recentralization of state control when it came to the country's most valuable oil and gas reserves, putting most of them in the hands of Gazprom, the state-controlled natural gas behemoth.

Once in control of these assets, moreover, Putin has used his renascent energy power to exert influence over states that were once part of the former Soviet Union, as well as those in Western Europe that rely on Russian oil and gas for a substantial share of their energy needs. In the most extreme case, Moscow turned off the flow of natural gas to Ukraine on January 1, 2006, in the midst of an especially cold winter, in what was said to be a dispute over pricing but was widely viewed as punishment for Ukraine's political drift westwards. (The gas was turned back on four days later when Ukraine agreed to pay a higher price and offered other concessions.)

Gazprom has threatened similar action in disputes with Armenia, Belarus, and Georgia - in each case forcing those former Soviet SSRs to back down.

When it comes to the US-Russian relationship, just how much the balance of power has shifted was evident at the NATO summit at Bucharest in early April. There, President Bush asked that Georgia and Ukraine both be approved for eventual membership in the alliance, only to find top US allies (and Russian energy users) France and Germany blocking the measure out of concern of straining ties with Russia. "It was a remarkable rejection of American policy in an alliance normally dominated by Washington," Steven Erlanger and Steven Lee Myers of the New York Times reported, "and it sent a confusing signal to Russia, one that some countries considered close to appeasement of Moscow."

For Russian officials, however, the restoration of their country's great power status is not the product of deceit or bullying, but a natural consequence of being the world's leading energy provider. No one is more aware of this than Dmitri Medvedev, the former chairman of Gazprom and new Russian president. "The attitude toward Russia in the world is different now," he declared on December 11, 2007. "We are not being lectured like schoolchildren; we are respected and we are deferred to. Russia has reclaimed its proper place in the world community. Russia has become a different country, stronger and more prosperous."

The reverse, of course, can be said about the United States. As a result of our addiction to increasingly costly imported oil, we have become a different country, weaker and less prosperous. Whether we know it or not, the energy Berlin Wall has already fallen and the United States is an ex-superpower-in-the-making.

Michael Klare is a professor of peace and world security studies at Hampshire College and author of the just-released Rising Powers, Shrinking Planet: The New Geopolitics of Energy (Metropolitan Books). A documentary film based on his previous book, Blood and Oil, is available from the Media Education Foundation and can be ordered at bloodandoilmovie.com.

Copyright 2008 Michael T Klare.

I got this as an email, and it's a pretty interesting read. It pretty much sums up what I've been seeing for a while. The US is no longer really a super power. We still have a lot of weapons, so we are still dangerous, but more and more, no one is listening to us anymore. Our currency isn't worth squat, and we no longer have the respect to make up for it.

Ironically, the Russians, who are still net exporters of oil, are rising back up to super power status. It makes you wonder who really won the cold war?

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#2 2008-05-28 5:32 pm

ShnickyShnack
::: title edited due to Satanic influences :::
From: Rockin' out
Registered: 2001-05-25
Posts: 22237

Re: Interesting take on the US super-power status

The Russians aren't rising back to superpower status.

And how does oil rising to $3.50 a gallon mark a departure from superpower status?


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#3 2008-05-28 5:43 pm

radarman
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Registered: 2005-02-28
Posts: 3618

Re: Interesting take on the US super-power status

ShnickyShnack wrote:

The Russians aren't rising back to superpower status.

And how does oil rising to $3.50 a gallon mark a departure from superpower status?

What separates a super power from, say, Canada. It's about asserting authority, and being respected. The US is increasingly finding it can no longer demand things, while at the same time buying oil like its going out of style. We are losing our leverage. The Russians, on the other hand, have their hand on the valves; and are getting respect again.

IOW, our dependence on foreign oil has become an potential Achilles heel to our foreign policy.

In another article I've read, a pipeline project was proposed between Iran, Pakistan, India, and Afghanistan. The US tried to pressure India into not participating, and were rebuffed. The Iranians are cutting deals with anyone carrying cash, except us (partly because we made it illegal for US companies to do business in Iran, and partly because they think we are the great Satan) Increasingly, those countries, including Japan, are opting to cut the deals, rather than defer out of respect to US wishes.

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#4 2008-05-28 6:06 pm

[Tycho?]
As Elusive As Doubt
From: May the best sentience win
Registered: 2000-06-19
Posts: 3209

Re: Interesting take on the US super-power status

Oil plays a role, of course, but there are plenty of other things that are contributing.

I think the rise of China will be the most important contributor. Already the US is totally dependant on China to keep its economy afloat (and vise versa), and the US would have an extremely difficult time besting China in a conventional war, due to China's huge man power and ever increasing technology. China is content to sit and wait for the moment, doing nothing too confrontational as it consolidates its power. But as of right now the power that the US can exert on China is limited, certainly not what a "super power" should be able to exert.

The US struggle in Iraq and more recently its economic woes are really starting to highlight that the US does not posses as much power as it may think. Other countries can rebuff the US, because they think they can get away with it. And you know what, they're right.

I see the US declining as a super power over the next decade or so. I dont think this will be prevented or reversed. I do however think that the US will do everything it can to maintain its power, and this will involve some more interesting wars as it tries to maintain its status.

Last edited by [Tycho?] (2008-05-28 6:07 pm)


I could bore you with a philosophical tirade about freedom and tyranny, or try and explain to you what new horizons are suddenly open to me, but I doubt you would understand and if you did it might frighten you.  That amuses me.

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#5 2008-05-28 6:35 pm

JakeTheTall
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From: In Permanent Opposition
Registered: 2003-03-13
Posts: 9612

Re: Interesting take on the US super-power status

We're still a superpower.  The US spends more on defense than all other countries combined.  We have a large technology lead over most countries.  We also have a colossal economy.


Jesus said to the servants, "Fill the jars with water"; so they filled them to the brim.  Then he told them, "Now draw some out and take it to the master of the banquet."  They did so, and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew.

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#6 2008-05-28 7:00 pm

Farmerkev
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Registered: 2003-01-03
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Re: Interesting take on the US super-power status

'[Tycho? wrote:

'But as of right now the power that the US can exert on China is limited, certainly not what a "super power" should be able to exert.

Nobody ever told China what to do.
They are only now giving half a rats ass what other countries think.


Do your part to combat global warming.
Eat a cow.

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#7 2008-05-28 9:58 pm

Hank Rearden
Watch your step
From: Republic of Western Canada
Registered: 2001-04-18
Posts: 7044
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Re: Interesting take on the US super-power status

As long as Russia and the US still have a zillion nukes each, I, personally, will consider them superpowers.


The gross heathenism of civilization has generally destroyed nature, and poetry, and all that is spiritual. -John Muir-

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#8 2008-05-28 10:13 pm

ScifiterX
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Re: Interesting take on the US super-power status

The US is still technically a military superpower however our days as a scientific, cultural, and economic superpower have definitely passed.

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#9 2008-05-28 10:17 pm

Farmerkev
Official Dementor
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Registered: 2003-01-03
Posts: 18622

Re: Interesting take on the US super-power status

ScifiterX wrote:

The US is still technically a military superpower however our days as a scientific, cultural, and economic superpower have definitely passed.

I'm not sure what you're basing that on.


Do your part to combat global warming.
Eat a cow.

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#10 2008-05-28 10:29 pm

sturner
Royal High Poobah
Moderator
From: Carrollton, TX USA
Registered: 2000-01-31
Posts: 13795

Re: Interesting take on the US super-power status

Yeah, we can still kill the planet 5 times over.


I'm not dead yet.
There are 3 types of people, those who can count and those who can't.
"There are few things graven in stone, excepting your date of death."

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#11 2008-05-28 10:46 pm

Gr@sshopper
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From: Claremont CA
Registered: 2001-05-01
Posts: 1584

Re: Interesting take on the US super-power status

[Tycho?] wrote:

the US would have an extremely difficult time besting China in a conventional war, due to China's huge man power and ever increasing technology.

Wha? You really think so?

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#12 2008-05-28 11:08 pm

Tom_N
Member
Registered: 2002-01-24
Posts: 889

Re: Interesting take on the US super-power status

radarman wrote:

What separates a super power from, say, Canada. It's about asserting authority, and being respected. The US is increasingly finding it can no longer demand things, while at the same time buying oil like its going out of style. We are losing our leverage. The Russians, on the other hand, have their hand on the valves; and are getting respect again.

The EU and Canada are also buying oil "like it's going out of style".  Pretty much any country with First World living standards does (though there are differences in energy consumption, and attempts to get energy from sources other than oil).

As for Russia, when they cut off the flow through an oil pipeline to settle scores with one of the ex-members of the Soviet bloc (thus affecting many other countries), do you think that really gets them "respect" from EU customers?  More like, it gets them a reputation as an unreliable supplier.

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#13 2008-05-29 7:42 am

Goat on Parade
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Posts: 532

Re: Interesting take on the US super-power status

TL;DR

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#14 2008-05-29 8:21 am

user
Your plastic pal who's fun to be with
From: I'm not getting you down, am I
Registered: 2001-10-15
Posts: 16030

Re: Interesting take on the US super-power status

I read that long bullsmurf.


Aw, he's no fun, he fell right over.

Unless you become as little children, there's no way you will believe this crap.

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#15 2008-05-29 8:25 am

user
Your plastic pal who's fun to be with
From: I'm not getting you down, am I
Registered: 2001-10-15
Posts: 16030

Re: Interesting take on the US super-power status

Actually, I found it very thought-provoking.

One trouble with being a superpower based on the fact that you have nukes is that you can never actually use them. Doing so wipes out large areas of territory and you're left with nothing to capitalize on except the fear of other countries that they could be next...and a coalition of the unwilling isn't very useful for commerce.

And don't forget that nukes also have a massive oil-based infrastructure.

Last edited by user (2008-05-29 8:26 am)


Aw, he's no fun, he fell right over.

Unless you become as little children, there's no way you will believe this crap.

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#16 2008-05-29 9:05 am

StaticAge
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From: Crouching in your pea patch
Registered: 2002-08-28
Posts: 6935
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Re: Interesting take on the US super-power status

JakeTheTall wrote:

We're still a superpower.  The US spends more on defense than all other countries combined.  We have a large technology lead over most countries.  We also have a colossal economy.

I think the things you just mentioned are some of the main reasons why the US has had the presence and power over the years. But cheap petroleum fueled a lot of that. Just think of the technological boom when they started making plastics with oil products for instance. US economy has lots to offer of course, another big boost is the way US culture is marketed through entertainment industry. On the other hand, think of the impact digital media has had on sales of music- will that last? The threat of the US military right now is still formidable, but it doesnt exist in a vacuum, and the reality of world politics isnt shining very favorably and its manpower is stretched a little thin. If the fuel shortage and economic recession has much impact, it certainly will slow down development and today's technological or military lead can be overtaken. Its not doomsday, its just a real possibility.


"Live with your head in the lion's mouth. I want you to overcome 'em with yeses, undermine 'em with grins, agree 'em to death and destruction, let 'em swoller you till they vomit or bust wide open." -Ralph Ellison

"Overpower, overcome" -Cro-Mags

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#17 2008-05-29 10:47 am

user
Your plastic pal who's fun to be with
From: I'm not getting you down, am I
Registered: 2001-10-15
Posts: 16030

Re: Interesting take on the US super-power status

My most bleak assessment of the situation is to wonder if the energy situation will do what the Civil War failed to do - break up the United States. It could become difficult to keep such a large area together. Controlling foreign interests might see profit in making that happen and with the sell-offs that have been made, they may have the strength to do so.


Aw, he's no fun, he fell right over.

Unless you become as little children, there's no way you will believe this crap.

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#18 2008-05-29 10:57 am

[Tycho?]
As Elusive As Doubt
From: May the best sentience win
Registered: 2000-06-19
Posts: 3209

Re: Interesting take on the US super-power status

Gr@sshopper wrote:

[Tycho?] wrote:

the US would have an extremely difficult time besting China in a conventional war, due to China's huge man power and ever increasing technology.

Wha? You really think so?

Yes.

Now, the US would be able to inflict way more damage than China would. In a conventional war against China the US would have to mobilize every military asset it had, reinstate the draft, etc etc. I'm sure within the first day or so there would be many, many smoking craters in China as the US uses cruise missiles and bombers to take out Chinese military bases, power plants, or whatever.

But... thats about the best they'd be able to do. China's navy is limited, but it has long range anti-ship missiles that the US cannot counter, as well as a substantial submarine fleet. This would raise hell for the main way the US exerts its military might, namely carrier groups.

The US would be able to really damage China, while China wouldn't be able to do much of anything against US soil.
The US would be able to largely disable the Chinese military, whereas China has enough small stuff to take out some carriers, or at least keep them at a distance.
But even if the US does really well in a war like this.... how is it going to end? Occupy China? Good luck.

The US still has significant technological and materiel advantages over China. But the US would come out of a such a war badly scarred, and would essentially lose its ability to project military force elsewhere in the world, and it would totally bankrupt itself if the conflict lasted for any length of time.

Last edited by [Tycho?] (2008-05-29 10:58 am)


I could bore you with a philosophical tirade about freedom and tyranny, or try and explain to you what new horizons are suddenly open to me, but I doubt you would understand and if you did it might frighten you.  That amuses me.

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#19 2008-05-29 11:22 am

ShnickyShnack
::: title edited due to Satanic influences :::
From: Rockin' out
Registered: 2001-05-25
Posts: 22237

Re: Interesting take on the US super-power status

There's a lot wrong with that article. It's basically about oil, but it misrepresents a lot. For instance the reason OPEC isn't offering the US discounted petroleum isn't because they've lost respect for America as a superpower -- quite the contrary, most OPEC leaders depend on US support to remain in power -- but because that's just how the oil market works. The days of direct Saudi-Arabia-sells-oil-to-American-distributors ended decades ago. A restructuring of OPEC about a quarter century ago saw the oil pooled, then sold.

OPEC nations aren't really in a position to give the US a break on the price anymore. Been that way for years and years.


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#20 2008-05-29 11:24 am

ShnickyShnack
::: title edited due to Satanic influences :::
From: Rockin' out
Registered: 2001-05-25
Posts: 22237

Re: Interesting take on the US super-power status

[Tycho?] wrote:

Gr@sshopper wrote:

[Tycho?] wrote:

the US would have an extremely difficult time besting China in a conventional war, due to China's huge man power and ever increasing technology.

Wha? You really think so?

Yes.

Now, the US would be able to inflict way more damage than China would. In a conventional war against China the US would have to mobilize every military asset it had, reinstate the draft, etc etc. I'm sure within the first day or so there would be many, many smoking craters in China as the US uses cruise missiles and bombers to take out Chinese military bases, power plants, or whatever.

But... thats about the best they'd be able to do. China's navy is limited, but it has long range anti-ship missiles that the US cannot counter, as well as a substantial submarine fleet. This would raise hell for the main way the US exerts its military might, namely carrier groups.

The US would be able to really damage China, while China wouldn't be able to do much of anything against US soil.
The US would be able to largely disable the Chinese military, whereas China has enough small stuff to take out some carriers, or at least keep them at a distance.
But even if the US does really well in a war like this.... how is it going to end? Occupy China? Good luck.

The US still has significant technological and materiel advantages over China. But the US would come out of a such a war badly scarred, and would essentially lose its ability to project military force elsewhere in the world, and it would totally bankrupt itself if the conflict lasted for any length of time.

Actually I think a conventional war is pretty much the only type of conflict with China the US is pretty much guaranteed to win. Even the Chinese think so -- their plans in the eventuality of war with the US is for a Mao-style (aka Vietnam-style) popular (aka guerrilla) war.

But in a straight-up mano-a-mano matchup, I don't think the Chinese would have a prayer.


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#21 2008-05-29 11:27 am

Tallgeese
Sternly Advising
From: Pool Party
Registered: 2000-10-17
Posts: 34096

Re: Interesting take on the US super-power status

[Tycho?] wrote:

Gr@sshopper wrote:

[Tycho?] wrote:

the US would have an extremely difficult time besting China in a conventional war, due to China's huge man power and ever increasing technology.

Wha? You really think so?

Yes.

Now, the US would be able to inflict way more damage than China would. In a conventional war against China the US would have to mobilize every military asset it had, reinstate the draft, etc etc. I'm sure within the first day or so there would be many, many smoking craters in China as the US uses cruise missiles and bombers to take out Chinese military bases, power plants, or whatever.

But... thats about the best they'd be able to do. China's navy is limited, but it has long range anti-ship missiles that the US cannot counter, as well as a substantial submarine fleet. This would raise hell for the main way the US exerts its military might, namely carrier groups.

The US would be able to really damage China, while China wouldn't be able to do much of anything against US soil.
The US would be able to largely disable the Chinese military, whereas China has enough small stuff to take out some carriers, or at least keep them at a distance.
But even if the US does really well in a war like this.... how is it going to end? Occupy China? Good luck.

The US still has significant technological and materiel advantages over China. But the US would come out of a such a war badly scarred, and would essentially lose its ability to project military force elsewhere in the world, and it would totally bankrupt itself if the conflict lasted for any length of time.

Where exactly are you getting your information?


I still believe in liberalism today as much as I ever did, but, oh, there was a happy time when I believed in liberals.

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#22 2008-05-29 11:34 am

[Tycho?]
As Elusive As Doubt
From: May the best sentience win
Registered: 2000-06-19
Posts: 3209

Re: Interesting take on the US super-power status

The internet? What part in particular are you wondering about?


I could bore you with a philosophical tirade about freedom and tyranny, or try and explain to you what new horizons are suddenly open to me, but I doubt you would understand and if you did it might frighten you.  That amuses me.

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#23 2008-05-29 11:51 am

Tallgeese
Sternly Advising
From: Pool Party
Registered: 2000-10-17
Posts: 34096

Re: Interesting take on the US super-power status

That China has long-range cruise missiles that we can't counter, that China has a substantial submarine fleet, that China could take out some carriers, and that the U.S. would have a difficult time besting China in a conventional war.

We could easily keep them contained in the mainland. Occupation would be impossible, but occupation isn't required.


I still believe in liberalism today as much as I ever did, but, oh, there was a happy time when I believed in liberals.

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#24 2008-05-29 11:53 am

JakeTheTall
Cargo Cultist
From: In Permanent Opposition
Registered: 2003-03-13
Posts: 9612

Re: Interesting take on the US super-power status

ScifiterX wrote:

The US is still technically a military superpower however our days as a scientific, cultural, and economic superpower have definitely passed.

Really ?  How did you come to that notion ?

Look at how much the US spends on R&D, compared to other countries.  Its a lot more.  Also compare our universities to other countries.

Cultural...meh, I mean Hollywood movies and pop stars are popular around the world, but not sure how or why cultural superpower-dom matters.

Economic, I'd argue that we're joined by the EU, rather than we are no longer one.  China might be one in another 15 years, depending on how they manage their economy and their political stability.


Jesus said to the servants, "Fill the jars with water"; so they filled them to the brim.  Then he told them, "Now draw some out and take it to the master of the banquet."  They did so, and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew.

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#25 2008-05-29 11:56 am

ScifiterX
婚約中
Moderator
From: NW Palm Bay, Florida
Registered: 2000-02-10
Posts: 18088
Website

Re: Interesting take on the US super-power status

Farmerkev wrote:

ScifiterX wrote:

The US is still technically a military superpower however our days as a scientific, cultural, and economic superpower have definitely passed.

I'm not sure what you're basing that on.

The former our ability to wipe life off Earth several times over. The latter our weak dollar, our trade deficit, the fact we've exported many of our businesses, the fact that  many technologies are outstretching our growth, the fact that many other countries have better heath care systems, better environmental policies, the degrading of our media quality, the fact that the records we once held have fallen to other countries, the fact that we wasted our nation's good will, need I go on.

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