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And lest we forget the concrete example of this particular case:

Mr. Long, who fled to Ontario in 2005, had signed up to join the U.S. Army in July, 2003. He believed at that time that his country was justified in going to war in Iraq

Farmerkev wrote:

ShnickyShnack wrote:

I guess what really strikes me about this issue is the absence of sympathy for these guys. The legal issues are window-dressing, I think -- there's something emotional happening here. I just don't see what it is.

The military isn't just a job so you can't compare that to McJournalism or McFactory.
You willingly make an obligation that goes beyond 9-5 and includes willingly giving up freedom and risking your life when called upon.

A-ha.

Farmerkev wrote:

Yes, and you don't get to change your mind.

Even if your superiors lie through their teeth.

Farmerkev wrote:

ShnickyShnack wrote:

I guess what really strikes me about this issue is the absence of sympathy for these guys. The legal issues are window-dressing, I think -- there's something emotional happening here. I just don't see what it is.

The military isn't just a job so you can't compare that to McJournalism or McFactory.
You willingly make an obligation that goes beyond 9-5 and includes willingly giving up freedom and risking your life when called upon.

Yeah. If your boss says that you've got to sodomize that prisoner, you sodomize that prisoner. Use a toilet plunger if you have to, but don't you dare question a lawful order.

If the government crosses a line of legality or morality and if my commander in chief establishes himself as a drooling moron operating under dubious influences, then I certainly would be prepared to consider my contract with these people void. I'm no statist.

It might be part of a solution.
I'm not defending any particular soldier's or deserter's actions.

Ribtorus wrote:

If the government crosses a line of legality or morality and if my commander in chief establishes himself as a drooling moron operating under dubious influences, then I certainly would be prepared to consider my contract with these people void. I'm no statist.

That's interesting.

After all, the burden of this debate is on the individuals who violate the terms of their contract. But is there anything the government can do to render the contract null and void?

Farmerkev wrote:

ShnickyShnack wrote:

Farmerkev wrote:

The military isn't just a job so you can't compare that to McJournalism or McFactory.
You willingly make an obligation that goes beyond 9-5 and includes willingly giving up freedom and risking your life when called upon.

A-ha.

Yes, and you don't get to change your mind.
Don't like it, don't sign up.
It's not a draft.

To reiterate what others have said: you can't change your mind when the lies you were told unravel ?

JakeTheTall wrote:

Farmerkev wrote:

ShnickyShnack wrote:

A-ha.

Yes, and you don't get to change your mind.
Don't like it, don't sign up.
It's not a draft.

To reiterate what others have said: you can't change your mind when the lies you were told unravel ?

In this situation such a response is a convenient excuse for not wanting to do the job.

No soldier is required to carry out illegal actions.
There are avenues to take besides running away.
Read those words Tallgeese wrote and decide if this individuals actions showed honor and duty or just plain cowardice.
(and I don't believe for a moment Ribby or Geese or Sty would run but stay and fight the command structure using everything at their disposal with full knowledge they could well pay a steep price)

Farmerkev wrote:

No soldier is required to carry out illegal actions.
There are avenues to take besides running away.

I ask again: what if those avenues lead nowhere?

Rights are either always yours or a state sponsored illusion, which as such, you are free to ignore their right to govern them anyway since they dont exist. If you are willing to take consequences for the choices you make and are always in a position to continue making, then there should be no crying whatsoever. Join the army, leave the army, serve a term in prison, live life on the run, etc, what ever you want. The world aint your oyster but your choices are yours regardless of what ever rubric you want to use to pretend you had no choice.

Freakout Jackson wrote:

Jdude wrote:

There is even a box you can check if you are a consciencetious objector so they can put you in some lame job like cook or seamstress.

I hope the guys that feed you and shovel your smurf go awol

KBR is doing the feeding these days and the suckers put on the smurf burning details are whomever responds to "Hey you! yeah you, the one that looked!"

Farmerkev wrote:

ShnickyShnack wrote:

Farmerkev wrote:

No soldier is required to carry out illegal actions.
There are avenues to take besides running away.

I ask again: what if those avenues lead nowhere?

Read what I already said in what you cut from the quote.

Then tell it to a Bush hating newspaper. Running away and not pointing fingers is not a solution. It is cowardice. Hell if he detailed the war crimes he is aware of while attempting asylum, even then I would give him the benefit of the doubt. But as I see it there is some slacker who wants to put his head down and say 'nuh uh' to everything and be left alone.