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Everyone probably knew who batman was, but they took the time to develop his and the girls character, but joker just appears out of nowhere and they give lame treatment to the past of dent (ie that weak dialog about twoface nickname)

Steyr AUG wrote:

Everyone probably knew who batman was, but they took the time to develop his and the girls character, but joker just appears out of nowhere and they give lame treatment to the past of dent (ie that weak dialog about twoface nickname)

The movie was long enough without them doing character development that at least 70% of the audience was likely already aware of.

Steyr AUG wrote:

Everyone probably knew who batman was, but they took the time to develop his and the girls character, but joker just appears out of nowhere and they give lame treatment to the past of dent (ie that weak dialog about twoface nickname)

Eh, I don't think we need a back story for the Joker. That would only serve to add some logic behind the character who was supposed to be the embodiment of chaos. It would also take all the fun of trying to wrap your head around his insanity.

That said,  the Joker never really started out with, or a acquired, a definitive back story in the comics. This movie was clearly inspired by the The Killing Joke, which depicts an origin story that may or many not be real. "Sometimes I remember it one way, sometimes another... if I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice." Hence the different tales about his scars in the movie.

niggs0026 wrote:

Steyr AUG wrote:

Everyone probably knew who batman was, but they took the time to develop his and the girls character, but joker just appears out of nowhere and they give lame treatment to the past of dent (ie that weak dialog about twoface nickname)

I agree with your point about the two face nickname. That was sort of a cliche setup. It didn't take away from the character for me though. I thought Eckhardt did a fine job. I can see your point about him just being thrown at the audience, though. I agree with LukeLucas about the Joker. I liked the fact that he came out of nowhere. We didn't really know anything about him. For example, his use of multiple stories to explain the scars. Most of the other characters were in the first movie. However, I think there were a lot of subtle dilemmas each character was placed in that caused enough satisfactory development for me.

Out of curiousity, what do you believe are the deus ex machina solutions in the movie?

The rediculous bullet forensics and the every-cellphone-a-sensor surveillance machine were the most glaring examples. There was plenty of time they could have trimmed from other parts to have at least attempted to give a little better solution to those problems.

Naturally they wouldnt have had these problems if they had made the jokers abilities to conduct operations just a tensey-bit more realistic. For a dude who liberally kills off his associates, he sure seems to have a lot of them. That and the laughably improbable series of events thats just happens to lead exactly into his ultimate plans for anarchy.

As was said previously, the first movie was exceedingly well done. While obviously you have to suspend belief, it did the realism well. This one went over the top with the rediculous technology solving miraculously solving the difficult situations they wrote themselves in to.

For the joker supposedly not having a plan, they sure did reference it a lot.

In that case why not have benevolent alien overlords descend from the heavens and solve the ills of gotham city?

Sometimes movies go a little two far in their unreality. This is one of those times. It was obviously possible to make a realistic batman, as evidenced by the previous one in the series.

Steyr AUG wrote:

As was said previously, the first movie was exceedingly well done. While obviously you have to suspend belief, it did the realism well. This one went over the top with the rediculous technology solving miraculously solving the difficult situations they wrote themselves in to.

For the joker supposedly not having a plan, they sure did reference it a lot.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the first matter. I think you're slightly exaggerating your points. Over the top? The bullet forensics ultimately lead to a dead end for Bruce. I can see where your bat sonar argument lies. He said he had R&D assigned to it. For you, that wasn't enough. For me, that was enough. It was the least of my concerns. It just depends on how each individual views a movie. I'm not sure what else there was in the way of ridiculous technology miraculously solving difficult situations.

As for the second matter, explain. I don't know how you expect me to respond if you don't want to tell what those references are. The "it's all part of the plan" speech wasn't referring to his plan. The "plan" to kill Batman wasn't really a plan to kill him at all from what I gathered. He says he is like a dog chasing cars and wouldn't know what to do with one if he caught it. He says Batman is too fun to have around to really kill him. The plan to cause anarchy? Is that really a careful plan of a series of events? I'm just not sure what these means: "the laughably improbable series of events thats just happens to lead exactly into his ultimate plans for anarchy."

Steyr AUG wrote:

Planning like him knowing exactly where the Dent convoy was going to be going, even when it dynamically veered off course (ie the helicopter), setting up the honor guard as the assassin team (particularly rediculous considering the visibility of the honor guard and the hight likelyhood that they would have been noticed), calling out a bomb threat on hospitals so he can walk in and convert dent, setting up bombs *everywhere* freely and with no one batting an eye, knowing exactly how and on what ships the convicts from arkham will be shipped on and have all of these plans be initiated no problem.

All of this happening is either due to meticulous planning or shear blind luck, either of which is equally vastly improbable that it drives the movie right over the edge of rediculousness.

The Joker had all the mobs in his pocket, making it very easy for him to have eyes everywhere.  It's not improbable that he was in the know about the ships, nor was it impossible for him to be able to plant explosives everywhere.

The bat sonar, I agree, was a bit much.  But all in all, it was a very well done movie, and I didn't feel like it cheated the comics at all (which is something very difficult not to do, evidently).

Oh yeah, and it's a comic book movie.

CrashingtehWarehouse wrote:

Steyr AUG wrote:

Planning like him knowing exactly where the Dent convoy was going to be going, even when it dynamically veered off course (ie the helicopter), setting up the honor guard as the assassin team (particularly rediculous considering the visibility of the honor guard and the hight likelyhood that they would have been noticed), calling out a bomb threat on hospitals so he can walk in and convert dent, setting up bombs *everywhere* freely and with no one batting an eye, knowing exactly how and on what ships the convicts from arkham will be shipped on and have all of these plans be initiated no problem.

All of this happening is either due to meticulous planning or shear blind luck, either of which is equally vastly improbable that it drives the movie right over the edge of rediculousness.

The Joker had all the mobs in his pocket, making it very easy for him to have eyes everywhere.  It's not improbable that he was in the know about the ships, nor was it impossible for him to be able to plant explosives everywhere.

The bat sonar, I agree, was a bit much.  But all in all, it was a very well done movie, and I didn't feel like it cheated the comics at all (which is something very difficult not to do, evidently).

Oh yeah, and it's a comic book movie.

Your point would be stronger if this new series of movies hadnt been pimped by the director as focusing on being grounded in reality. Batman Begins did the effect well, this movie sold out the premise for the explosion/violence lovers.

Steyr AUG wrote:

Planning like him knowing exactly where the Dent convoy was going to be going, even when it dynamically veered off course (ie the helicopter), setting up the honor guard as the assassin team (particularly rediculous considering the visibility of the honor guard and the hight likelyhood that they would have been noticed), calling out a bomb threat on hospitals so he can walk in and convert dent, setting up bombs *everywhere* freely and with no one batting an eye, knowing exactly how and on what ships the convicts from arkham will be shipped on and have all of these plans be initiated no problem.

All of this happening is either due to meticulous planning or shear blind luck, either of which is equally vastly improbable that it drives the movie right over the edge of rediculousness.

Well, you're right about one thing, all that is planning. I'll have to refine my take on the Joker character.

He could have been communicating with his people while the chase was going on to let them know where they were headed. Not that improbable. Not to mention, I think he guessed that he was going to succeed in making them veer off course. If not, he just abandons the plan.

As for the honor guard, I think it was sort of smart. That was the last place they were looking for the assassins. This is made obvious by the numerous clips of the officers looking up at the windows. Also, the only one with a recognizable face was Joker, but his hair was tucked in under the cap and it appeared as if his makeup was a little washed out.

You assume he was acting alone in setting up all those bombs.

The ships happened because he threatened the people about using the bridges and tunnels. There was no where else to turn. I also believe they said they only had like two ships.

The studio should take heart. Nolan has a cogent Theory of Applied Batmatics: Insist on reality — no effects, no tricks — up to the point where insisting on reality becomes unrealistic. Then, in postproduction, make what is necessarily unreal as real as possible. "Anything you notice as technology reminds you that you're in a movie theater," Nolan explains. "Even if you're trying to portray something fantastical and otherworldly, it's always about trying to achieve invisible manipulation." Especially, he adds, with Batman, "the most real of all the superheroes, who has no superpowers."

Link.

Steyr AUG wrote:

niggs0026 wrote:

Steyr AUG wrote:

Everyone probably knew who batman was, but they took the time to develop his and the girls character, but joker just appears out of nowhere and they give lame treatment to the past of dent (ie that weak dialog about twoface nickname)

I agree with your point about the two face nickname. That was sort of a cliche setup. It didn't take away from the character for me though. I thought Eckhardt did a fine job. I can see your point about him just being thrown at the audience, though. I agree with LukeLucas about the Joker. I liked the fact that he came out of nowhere. We didn't really know anything about him. For example, his use of multiple stories to explain the scars. Most of the other characters were in the first movie. However, I think there were a lot of subtle dilemmas each character was placed in that caused enough satisfactory development for me.

Out of curiousity, what do you believe are the deus ex machina solutions in the movie?

The rediculous bullet forensics and the every-cellphone-a-sensor surveillance machine were the most glaring examples. There was plenty of time they could have trimmed from other parts to have at least attempted to give a little better solution to those problems.

Naturally they wouldnt have had these problems if they had made the jokers abilities to conduct operations just a tensey-bit more realistic. For a dude who liberally kills off his associates, he sure seems to have a lot of them. That and the laughably improbable series of events thats just happens to lead exactly into his ultimate plans for anarchy.

Yeah, the bullet forensics really bugged me, since the rest of the movie was set up to be at least mostly plausible.  The cell phone sonar, though also way out there, was at least nifty enough to be justifiable.  Perhaps if they'd given it lower resolution it would have been more believable...

I tried to like the x-men movies, and I just couldn't.