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ScifiterX wrote:

Bat wrote:

NVIDIA GeForce 8800 GT

Decent card, but last-gen, and not top-line then. Where's the GTX 280 or ATi 4870? (Don't look for the 4870x2, [not quite out yet; 8/15], ever, despite being cheaper than the 280). Macs often lag a generation in the all-important video dept.

And this is why I blame place a good chunk on the blame on companies like AMD & Nvidia. Even if Apple did not buy them consumers would. They just aren't being made.

nothing wrong with that card -- I've had one for several months, now.  When I got it, it was lower high-end.  Now it's just midrange, and there's nothing wrong with that, either.  But it's a travesty that a midrange part is the only option available for a $3K machine.

That pretty descriptive of a large percent of towers, especially once they have been configured to gamers.

But not quite so much unless it's a full-bore, $5,000 rig.

I'd say even a $3000 rig isn't really marketed toward consumers and it's very expensive.

Which is why I'd never ever buy a Mac Pro.  I could build a midrange gaming PC for around $750, give or take as preference dictates.  Gaming-wise, it would be comparable to a Mac Pro.  Or add another $100, and handily defeat it (in games).

I stand what I said before nearly all towers are massively heavy monsters, not just the Mac Pro and it's part and parcel with their expandability. Certain some have better options for expandability but that does not alter that fact.

That's just not true.  Shuttle makes an extensive line of expandable "cube" SFFs (of comparable size and weight to Apple's G4 cube), with multiple drive bays and expansion slots.  Further, "most" towers are roughly half the size and weight of the MP.

Quick question, how good is a NVIDIA Quadro FX 5600?

It's an 8800GTX in disguise.  So maybe 15% faster than the 8800GT, and still a midrange performer.  Unfortunately, the price doesn't agree -- damn thing cost almost $3000 (for the Mac, anyway).

Wait, AMD and NV are at fault for not making cards for the Mac - but the only Macs being sold that can take upgrades are expensive towers that sell in relatively small numbers, which means little market for Mac upgrades. How is that their fault? Isn't it Apple's fault for only making consumer machines with fixed hardware? There were quite a few video card upgrades available back in they day when almost every Mac had an upgradeable slot. Now, what's the point? There aren't enough MPs sold to justify the cost to develop the cards - there's not enough consumers to market them to.

robco wrote:

Wait, AMD and NV are at fault for not making cards for the Mac - but the only Macs being sold that can take upgrades are expensive towers that sell in relatively small numbers, which means little market for Mac upgrades. How is that their fault? Isn't it Apple's fault for only making consumer machines with fixed hardware? There were quite a few video card upgrades available back in they day when almost every Mac had an upgradeable slot. Now, what's the point? There aren't enough MPs sold to justify the cost to develop the cards - there's not enough consumers to market them to.

There is very little architectural difference in PC video cards and Mac video cards any more. Some basic EFI firmware support (which they'll eventually need for PCs anyway) and the proper driver and it's a Mac card. You need not even put a second disk in the packaging. A single disk could handle both Mac and PC Data or you could even use the standard site to distribute the proper Mac data. It's not rocket science and considering the expanding Mac market it's not even a losing proposition. It even has the potential of fostering future sales in that avenue.

Bat wrote:

ScifiterX wrote:

And this is why I blame place a good chunk on the blame on companies like AMD & Nvidia. Even if Apple did not buy them consumers would. They just aren't being made.

They are being sold, tho. Channel inventory persists for a long time. You can easily get a PC 3870... hell, you can get a Radeon 7000 if it floats your boat.

So I should just hack the OS and/or drivers so I can get it to run in OS X. Brilliant plan

I'd say even a $3000 rig isn't really marketed toward consumers and it's very expensive.

It's a niche machine. So is an MP- really serious gamers, pros. Apple no makee midrange tower nor graphics-upgradable iMac, as we know.

My point was the MP was more niche than that.

Sure, fine gaming can be had with an MP, but it's not nearly optimal for the price.

Well, I kinda did mention it was configured and priced as a workstation.

And it's the only Mac above the iMac, so for gaming you're stuck pressing one or t'other into service. Apple product line not games-friendly, you have to make do.

Which is where I actually agree Apple is eventually going have to do something.

I stand what I said before nearly all towers are massively heavy monsters, not just the Mac Pro and it's part and parcel with their expandability. Certain some have better options for expandability but that does not alter that fact.

Naw. Plenty smaller, lighter machines. Lots more than the 'massively heavy monsters.'

Dell specs have their XPS line weighing between 31 lbs for a stripped model and 68 lbs for a packed model. (I cant find weights for much else save the MP which is 42 lbs at std config) and within a couple inches of the MP in size for all but a few "Slim" desktops. BTW Dell has now Mini's. Somewhat stylish ones too.

Quick question, how good is a NVIDIA Quadro FX 5600?

Not bad, but not the equal of current cards.

Which brings up my other bitchfest about AMD & Nvidia, their vague labeling of their cards. You have to realize they do it to confuse the consumer and jack the price (which distributors then mark up anyway).

Confuse, yes, jack up, sorta-kinda-not really. Anyway Quadros aren't found in Best Buy nor offered as options by almost anyone... except Apple. Alla time I hear 'is the Quado better for gaming?' Just a day or two ago, last, in Tech News. If you want one and aren't clear what it's for... ka-ching! Your fault, budday, if you inferred what we didn't say.

The trouble is they don't tell you what most cards are designed for and set semi arbitrary prices that cause people to infer what wasn't said. (It cost more so it must have more features or better performance).

ScifiterX wrote:

robco wrote:

Wait, AMD and NV are at fault for not making cards for the Mac - but the only Macs being sold that can take upgrades are expensive towers that sell in relatively small numbers, which means little market for Mac upgrades. How is that their fault? Isn't it Apple's fault for only making consumer machines with fixed hardware? There were quite a few video card upgrades available back in they day when almost every Mac had an upgradeable slot. Now, what's the point? There aren't enough MPs sold to justify the cost to develop the cards - there's not enough consumers to market them to.

There is very little architectural difference in PC video cards and Mac video cards any more. Some basic EFI firmware support (which they'll eventually need for PCs anyway) and the proper driver and it's a Mac card. You need not even put a second disk in the packaging. A single disk could handle both Mac and PC Data or you could even use the standard site to distribute the proper Mac data. It's not rocket science and considering the expanding Mac market it's not even a losing proposition. It even has the potential of fostering future sales in that avenue.

I'm with Rob, and there hasn't been much difference for ages- the chips are too complex. EFI can be done anytime, but I doubt the 3870 Mac & PC Ed. is selling any better than the 9600 Mac & [s]Cheese[/s] PC Ed. IIRC only Vista 64 supports EFI; when Intel and MS decide it's time, that'll become standard... but any bets Apple will make it harder to boot a PC card in a Mac? It'd cut the need for 'upgrade kits' from Apple and their margins, as well as aid the hackintosh market.

This is where I disagree. It would reduce overall cost for them to consolidate the Mac/PC and make it more more adaptive to marketshare changes. It could even somewhat facilitate such a marketshare change as as you point out, Apple's cards are getting the short end.

Also Steve likes to keep the line monolithic. If NV does a die shrink and a 65nm chip goes to 55nm, and a new card debuts, it won't be available in a Mac, at least for awhile. By then, if offered at all, it'll be obsolescent, cheaper, but JIT for, say, MWNY and the expected upgrades, for The Faithful to swoon over in the Stevenote.

BTO Options seem to change far more regularly than announced changes and as I've said the companies could easily do aftermarket option if Apple was being a stick in the mud.

Apple is a problem as far as Mac gaming is concerned but they are far from the only one. The video card makers and some of the game makers are every bit as guilty as Apple. Carmack is just using a different portion of the picture to justify, distract from, and cover up his companies contributions to the mess. Not that that portion isn't true (cause it is) but it's far from complete.

Hypothetically what do you think the effect of card makers doing current high end aftermarket card for the Mac would to Apple's BTO business. I think it would limit it as people would order more standard or processor only configurations until Apple had no choice but to order current cards higher end cards for their BTOs.

ScifiterX wrote:

robco wrote:

Wait, AMD and NV are at fault for not making cards for the Mac - but the only Macs being sold that can take upgrades are expensive towers that sell in relatively small numbers, which means little market for Mac upgrades. How is that their fault? Isn't it Apple's fault for only making consumer machines with fixed hardware? There were quite a few video card upgrades available back in they day when almost every Mac had an upgradeable slot. Now, what's the point? There aren't enough MPs sold to justify the cost to develop the cards - there's not enough consumers to market them to.

There is very little architectural difference in PC video cards and Mac video cards any more. Some basic EFI firmware support (which they'll eventually need for PCs anyway) and the proper driver and it's a Mac card. You need not even put a second disk in the packaging. A single disk could handle both Mac and PC Data or you could even use the standard site to distribute the proper Mac data. It's not rocket science and considering the expanding Mac market it's not even a losing proposition. It even has the potential of fostering future sales in that avenue.

Mac cards have been the same as PC cards since Apple adopted PCI (which was a long time ago).  The difference has always been firmware.  And neither AMD nor NV sees the point of allocating the development and tech support resources for a Mac version (or hybrid version) of their cards, for such a low-volume market.  Firmware is not the most complex thing to develop, but between that and the tech support costs, they just don't think its worth it.

On the other hand, Apple can rather easily enable support for BIOS cards.  In fact it's already part of the EFI spec.  Apple intentionally disabled it.  So blame whoever you want, but Apple (the company that would benefit the most) can easily fix the problem, but refuses to do so.

Last edited by Mr. T (2008-08-06 4:07 pm)

ScifiterX wrote:

So I should just hack the OS and/or drivers so I can get it to run in OS X. Brilliant plan

Channel inventory in the PC space. There's probably more vidcard availability for PCs going back years than there is for Macs at launch. I don't recommend Macs for gaming, I just help those who insist on doing it.

I'd say even a $3000 rig isn't really marketed toward consumers and it's very expensive.

It's a niche machine. So is an MP- really serious gamers, pros. Apple no makee midrange tower nor graphics-upgradable iMac, as we know.

My point was the MP was more niche than that.

And MPs used for gaming are a subset of that... which further reduces any incentive ATI or NV might have to make vidcards for the only Macs able to take them. Add in the switch to PCIe and you have a teensy-tiny market to make cards for (with a very vocal minority demanding them anyway ).

Dell specs have their XPS line weighing between 31 lbs for a stripped model and 68 lbs for a packed model. (I cant find weights for much else save the MP which is 42 lbs at std config) and within a couple inches of the MP in size for all but a few "Slim" desktops. BTW Dell has now Mini's. Somewhat stylish ones too.

Comp weight or shipping weight? I remember cruising CompUSAs on occasion and Best Buys more recently, and there are always mid-towers on display. Compact mobos are big sellers for the DIY folks too.

The trouble is they don't tell you what most cards are designed for and set semi arbitrary prices that cause people to infer what wasn't said. (It cost more so it must have more features or better performance).

That's what online reviews and even Google are for. Apple gossip sites shouldn't be the 's sole surf destinations.

BTO Options seem to change far more regularly than announced changes and as I've said the companies could easily do aftermarket option if Apple was[n't] being a stick in the mud.

Somewhat, still nowhere near enough. The big lack is still in somewhere to put aftermarket cards. They like to make money, but they won't make cards that can't sell.

Apple is a problem as far as Mac gaming is concerned but they are far from the only one. The video card makers and some of the game makers are every bit as guilty as Apple. Carmack is just using a different portion of the picture to justify, distract from, and cover up his companies contributions to the mess. Not that that portion isn't true (cause it is) but it's far from complete.

Nuh-uh. Carmack could easily ignore the Mac with little difference to id's bottom line, and other product makers would happily jump in if they had a market, like LogiTech. Comps need mice, so the aftermarket makes them. Far fewer Macs need (or can even use) modern videocards or games above Snood.

Visit IMG, look at the ads. Those are the games that sell on the Mac- poker, casual games, a few higher-profile items. UT3 and Gears of War have still to even get recent mention, let alone shipping dates. The ad hasn't been updated since winter when it read 'Coming in Spring.' Recent MacGameFiles are

•  Haunted Hotel 1.0
•  Jewel Quest III 1.0.6
•  Puzzle Quest 1.0.2
•  Yatzy Twist 1.04
•  Teeworlds 0.4.2
•  Booze 0.9b2
•  ScribBall 1.1.3
•  Dale Hardshovel 1.0
•  GolfCard 6.2
•  Alpha PinBall 2.1

Not many of those need 4870s to run or look good. Not id's fault. Carmack seems frustrated. Rage will get its Mac version, but how many will sell?

Apple is the problem with Mac gaming. Steve is. With a more game-friendly product line and a youthful demographic, the product line is the biggest problem. Fix it and the rest starts to fall in line.

I make my own, so need this not- but Apple, make a new Cube or other SFF box. Decent CPU (not Xeon, no special RAM needed), one PCIe slot to hold a vidcard. Headless is best; push CDs but allow use with whatever is available. Tap that market.

Bat wrote:

the product line is the biggest problem. Fix it and the rest starts to fall in line.

I make my own, so need this not- but Apple, make a new Cube or other SFF box. Decent CPU (not Xeon, no special RAM needed), one PCIe slot to hold a vidcard. Headless is best; push CDs but allow use with whatever is available. Tap that market.

Absolutely.

Once again, only one Mac model has a PCIe slot. One. Not much of a potential market. Why should AMD and NV put the resources into catering to this market, especially if Apple will simply create their own reference designs, get an OEM to manufacture them and sell them through their own stores? It's not a winning proposition.

..until we see at least a 33%-50% marketshare.

Big Apple marketshare fixes Mac gaming, in fact the whole games industry? With Steve at the helm? S'cuse me, I gotta coupla teeth to knock out and leave under my pillow.

Actually that's what it will take for games makers and video card makers to give Mac as fair a shake as they give PC. Beyond that you're right non-console gaming is hurting bad which is a shame cause some game type just don't translate well. (The Myth Series, Diablo Series, Starcraft series, WarCraft series, Civilization series, & Tycoon series come to mind.) No amount of fixing on Apple's part or the video card makers part or increases in market share will fix that.

Damn it!!! Quote!!!! Quote!!!! Not edit Damn it!!!!!-Sci

Last edited by ScifiterX (2008-08-06 11:48 pm)

ScifiterX wrote:

That sort emphasizes an issue with game makers as of late the being stagnant. It either a system killer (which varies in quality from crap to a work of art) or a casual game. There's rarely any happy mediums anymore.

It just ocurred to me that, with only an old MB and no recent console, you're commenting from a relatively uninformed place. What games/demos have you played, or even watched being played, recently?

ScifiterX wrote:

Even AMD has adopted EFI as a standard. The video cards are still mired in BIOs. Maybe it's just time the video card makers caught the hell up in that in that respect instead of forcing computer makers from requiring that aspect of BIOs compatibility.

The AMD/ATi Radeon 3870, retail card, is a Mac & PC Edition.

Many hard core gamers with Mac Pros run PC games under Windows XP or Vista in their Boot Camp partition. Notice the Radeon HD 38700 is called "Mac & PC Edition." That means it not only works nicely under Windows XP or Vista, but there is driver support for Crossfire mode. We tested this capability using two Radeon HD 3870s. Not only does it work but the Control Center app has an Overdrive features that lets you automatically test your Radeon HD 3870 to see how much it can be overclocked before overheating. Check out our Radeon HD 3870 versus GeForce 8800 GT page running various "PC only" 3D accelerated games.

http://www.barefeats.com/harper17.html

ScifiterX wrote:

Doom 3 and Crysis and just watched at that.

Probably time to get more experience, preferably at home, even watching cutscenes. (I find other ways often hard to relate to). Doom 3 is not only 4 years old, it was pretty formulaic then. A Mini should handle HD cutscenes.

Q: What do you think of the FPS genre at the moment?

Damian Isla: I think that this past year was so fantastic, I think everyone has recognised that it was a banner year in 2007 - between Call of Duty 4, Portal, BioShock. I really loved all of those games and it's really encouraging to see also just how unique they were. People have complained for years and years: "Oh the shooter market is stagnant, videogames are stagnant." I think this last year definitely proved that's not true. There's an incredible amount of innovation even just in first person games - that's really exciting.

I think we were fairly innovative with Halo 3 as well with features like the Forge and the theatre mode...I think it's proving to everyone who didn't realise that there's just a tremendous amount left to do in the first person space, in the first person action space, so many narrative ideas to explore, game mechanic ideas to explore, just things that haven't been done before.

Bungie's lead AI programmer @ gamesindustry.biz