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ShnickyShnack wrote:

Ribtorus wrote:

If America and Iraq can't negotiate a forces agreement before Bush leaves, then it'll be up to the O'Bama White House to do it. They can put if off for a while if there's a renewed U.N. mandate but eventually it will be the Democrats seeking ways to remain in Iraq and there'll be no political cover.  Unless O'Bama actually has the courage of his convictions and orders a phased withdrawal even from the major bases. Economic hardship may be on his side. I figure running out of money is what will get America out of Iraq, not policy.

So there could be some interesting schadenfreude over this matter.

Doesn't it have to be signed, sealed and delivered by the end of this year?

If there's no agreement by the end of this year, the parties will get an extension of the U.N. mandate they currently are under. Russia has said it won't veto an extension. This U.N. mandate will buy time for the next round of negotiations. This takes pressure off the next administration.

However, if the Bush admin does fail to secure the bases and other rights in Iraq, then that would be a failure as far as the core neo-cons are concerned, and it would be up to the next admin to secure those bases and rights, if it's so inclined. What the O'Bama admin will seek from the Iraqis will be fascinating to follow.

there will be a phased withdrawal due primarily to the necessity to finish the actual thing we invaded afghanistan to do, as well as reduce the monetary bleeding we are experiencing in iraq (arguably, at the hands of our own damn contractors).
the u.n. thing might help, since they are as aware as we are of the cost of the u.s. going it alone in iraq (wait!!! you forgot about poland!!!!!!).

does anyone in the republican camp know anything about fiscal responsibility? do any of them care about the long term viability of the u.s., or are they all trust fund babies day trading everyone else's equity?

zeitgeist wrote:

Farmerkev wrote:

Yes, I am.
As I've said several times in the past, our best times come with divided gov't.
I fear they will be even worse than the all Rep period we've just had.

- Two mismanaged wars that have nearly bankrupted the country financially and diplomatically.
   - One of those wars sold to the country entirely on lies and fabrications. 
   - The bait and switch that was "oil revenues will pay for it" turned into "we'll just borrow it from China."
- International policy based on "looking into people's souls" instead of actual intelligence. 
- The collapse of the financial system requiring trillions of dollars in bailouts.
- The collapse of the housing market and hundreds of thousands of foreclosures.
- Mismanaged natural disaster after mismanaged natural disaster.
- Environmental policy made with complete disregard for scientific research.
- The removal of civil liberties and the gutting of the bill of rights brought about by (but not limited to) the patriot act.
- Torture.


This is just off the top of my head.  I'm sure if I spent any time to look I could find a hell of a lot more.  Exactly how do you expect it to get worse?


The democrats in congress have played follow the leader far too often for my liking while President Bush was the one doing the leading.  I don't hold them blameless, but I do hope they'll keep following if Obama is elected.   It would be really nice if they could fix some of the damage they've helped the republicans wreak on this country.

How do I expect it to get worse?
The Fairness Doctrine.
Removing even more people from the tax rolls so big govt only becomes all benefit/no downside for them.
The Patriot Act.
Continued mismanaged and wasted bailout money.
Increased govt policies and regulations removing choice and freedom and inserting the fed into ever more control over peoples lives.

Farmerkev wrote:

zeitgeist wrote:

Farmerkev wrote:

Yes, I am.
As I've said several times in the past, our best times come with divided gov't.
I fear they will be even worse than the all Rep period we've just had.

- Two mismanaged wars that have nearly bankrupted the country financially and diplomatically.
   - One of those wars sold to the country entirely on lies and fabrications. 
   - The bait and switch that was "oil revenues will pay for it" turned into "we'll just borrow it from China."
- International policy based on "looking into people's souls" instead of actual intelligence. 
- The collapse of the financial system requiring trillions of dollars in bailouts.
- The collapse of the housing market and hundreds of thousands of foreclosures.
- Mismanaged natural disaster after mismanaged natural disaster.
- Environmental policy made with complete disregard for scientific research.
- The removal of civil liberties and the gutting of the bill of rights brought about by (but not limited to) the patriot act.
- Torture.


This is just off the top of my head.  I'm sure if I spent any time to look I could find a hell of a lot more.  Exactly how do you expect it to get worse?


The democrats in congress have played follow the leader far too often for my liking while President Bush was the one doing the leading.  I don't hold them blameless, but I do hope they'll keep following if Obama is elected.   It would be really nice if they could fix some of the damage they've helped the republicans wreak on this country.

How do I expect it to get worse?
The Fairness Doctrine.
Removing even more people from the tax rolls so big govt only becomes all benefit/no downside for them.
The Patriot Act.
Continued mismanaged and wasted bailout money.
Increased govt policies and regulations removing choice and freedom and inserting the fed into ever more control over peoples lives.

On the optimistic side we might see more investment in infrastructure. The Dems, for all their warts, have a better connection with the working man and infrastructure investment is the sort of thing they might do. I am a big fan of infrastructure investment seeing as the post war investment we made is what made us the industrial power house we were.
Call me an "Eisenhower Democrat" I guess.
But..ya,, te patriot act and smurf like that will only get worse and that's not just going to be an American thing. Look at the other Western Democracies, all of them are investing heavily in the surveillance society thing.  I think we are seeing the end of the free society period. Now that tech will allow it we will continue to migrate into the Total Information Control world.
Frankly it has always been thus, governments have used available tech to observe and control the population,  thing is, now we are moving into an age where omnipresent control and observation is possible due to new tech.
The amount of data that the government can absorb, collate and utilize has moved out past anything our, or any other countries, constitutions were written for.
I expect to be the old greybeard telling my grandkids of the days when you could pretty much run around and do what ever you wanted and no one would know.
I expect they wont believe my stories or yours.
It will be a brave new world.
And it will be here inside 20 years.

Last edited by Pariah (2008-10-26 8:44 am)

zeitgeist wrote:

Removing even more people from the tax rolls so big govt only becomes all benefit/no downside for them.

Who?

Obama tax plan wrote:

A $1,000 “Making Work Pay” Tax Credit. For 95 percent of workers and their families—150 million
workers overall—the “Making Work Pay” credit will provide a refundable tax cut of $500 for workers or
$1,000 for working couples. This credit will benefit over 15 million self employed workers and for 10
million low-income Americans, will completely eliminate their federal income taxes.

zeitgeist wrote:

Steyr AUG wrote:

zeitgeist wrote:

AKA the death of Fox News.

Hardly. The fairness doctrine has nothing to do with cable channels. It deals broadcast tv and radio.

It still remains an extremely poor idea that is easily open for rampant abuse.

I have to agree that there's a little too much potential for abuse, even if it would turn off the propaganda spigot that is Fox.  And as you point out, it wouldn't.

Farmerkev wrote:

zeitgeist wrote:

Who?

Obama tax plan wrote:

A $1,000 “Making Work Pay” Tax Credit. For 95 percent of workers and their families—150 million workers overall—the “Making Work Pay” credit will provide a refundable tax cut of $500 for workers or $1,000 for working couples. This credit will benefit over 15 million self employed workers and for 10 million low-income Americans, will completely eliminate their federal income taxes.

Sounds like a better plan than making the poorest people amongst us pay back the bailout for the richest.

Pay back the bailout?
This is just to come up with the money for their day to day operations which won't be enough and we'll still be growing the national debt.
Nobody has even touched on the idea of paying for the bailout.

Hah, after the "wonderful" job the Republicans have done with their monopoly on power?

adamjg wrote:

Hah, after the "wonderful" job the Republicans have done with their monopoly on power?

That ended with the midterms 2 years ago.
Now you've got a President with the lowest approval ratings in memory and a Dem congress with ratings even lower.

jerwin wrote:

The Patriot Act.

So, you fear that Obama will use the act for the purposes it was designed for?

When it first came out I wasn't overly concerned and saw it as much the same as our historical actions taken after Pearl or in the civil war. I fully expected it to get toned downed to the one or two good ideas and the rest to go away in the same manner those past actions did.
They went the other way, both parties, and even strengthened it.

jerwin wrote:

Farmerkev wrote:

jerwin wrote:

So, you fear that Obama will use the act for the purposes it was designed for?

When it first came out I wasn't overly concerned and saw it as much the same as our historical actions taken after Pearl or in the civil war. I fully expected it to get toned downed to the one or two good ideas and the rest to go away in the same manner those past actions did.
They went the other way, both parties, and even strengthened it.

Sorry, FarmerKev, you won't be getting on this plane. Our records show that over the past year, you've been buying up fertilizer and fuel oil.

Yeah, about $200,000 or so.
Ought to make a biiiiiiiiiiig boom

I agree that the idea of a "Fairness Doctrine" is farcical.  Unnecessary and impossible to enforce correctly.

If there's anything to be nervous about, it's the Democrats messing-up their given opportunity to turn things around for themselves and the country, assuming they win big.

Speaking of the fairness doctrine...

How Media Deregulation Kidnapped Natalee Holloway