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ScifiterX wrote:

mo' ron wrote:

ScifiterX wrote:

1: All manufacturers including Apple have pulled crap like this for years. It just not always been so noticeable.

I don't really buy your assertion here.

Apple has demonstrably removed features and add-ins from their products. They have not been doing it for years, they have only been doing it recently.

Even Dell at least includes a slip-case with their laptops, where has Apple has STOPPED including several adapters, and I they don't even include the Front Row remote anymore, do they?

Where is the floppy on the new Dells?  Where's the modem? Where is the keyboard port? Where is the mouse? Heck at one point recently some PC's dont even give you the system restore disks but had you burn your own as part of the system setup (lord forbid you did not have a blank disk to do so at the time).

Apple takes a lot of flack for ditching stuff but when the PC follow suit and nothing. On top of that it common practice to delay adopting or standardizing X or Y standard. That why you see PCs still limited to 100/10 networking cards, with optional bluetooth, and/or with optional WiFi.

Adaptor-wise there was the model specific iPod Dock which everybody and their cousin rendered superfluous and you can still buy the universal model not to mention the shuffle dock. Certainly can't be talking about iPod AC Power adaptors since those still exist. Certainly can't be talking about DVI-VGA adaptors since the Mini's and towers have them and the AIOs & the lappy's never did. I guess you could be talking the FireWire adaptor for the iPod but they don't use those anymore. Possibly a FW800 to FW400 cable? I doubt it. No PC maker includes FireWire cables.

Case in point

ScifiterX wrote:

Yup a rat among rats.

Question seems to be- were they always?

ScifiterX wrote:

Where is the floppy on the new Dells?  Where's the modem? Where is the keyboard port? Where is the mouse? Heck at one point recently some PC's dont even give you the system restore disks but had you burn your own as part of the system setup (lord forbid you did not have a blank disk to do so at the time).

There's good reason to drop floppies and PS/2 mouse, what good reason is there to drop firewire completely from the macbooks? Why not include the VGA adapter? you realize 99.9% of people have absolutely no way to hook their computer to a projector or other external display, without buying a ridiculous $30 adapter, on a PRO machine? Does this make any sense? This has never been the case in the past, with Apple.

Apple takes a lot of flack for ditching stuff but when the PC follow suit and nothing. On top of that it common practice to delay adopting or standardizing X or Y standard. That why you see PCs still limited to 100/10 networking cards, with optional bluetooth, and/or with optional WiFi.

I don't see what your point is here. WiFi is standard on the vast majority of PCs, as is USB. Bluetooth is very common (and probably standard on MOSt models now), as well as gigabit ethernet (since it's built in to INtel's and Nvidia's chipsets).

Adaptor-wise there was the model specific iPod Dock which everybody and their cousin rendered superfluous and you can still buy the universal model not to mention the shuffle dock. Certainly can't be talking about iPod AC Power adaptors since those still exist. Certainly can't be talking about DVI-VGA adaptors since the Mini's and towers have them and the AIOs & the lappy's never did. I guess you could be talking the FireWire adaptor for the iPod but they don't use those anymore. Possibly a FW800 to FW400 cable? I doubt it. No PC maker includes FireWire cables.

Apple use to INCLUDE an AC charger with the iPod was my point as well as a dock, and the 4-pin/6-pin firewire adapter too. The prices have remained the same for the base products, but the accessories you need to buy have increased, and as any retail employees know, the markup on accessories far exceeds the markup on just about any other product.

My mom's Ti 400 came with the s-video to composite video adapter even (and a bunch of songs in iTunes), my 3G iPod came with a firewire AC charger, my 17" Albook came with DVI-VGA adapter, as well as the S-video to composite adapter, my dad's Macbook Pro came with all these adapters AND a frontrow remote, but my co-workers new MacBook comes with nothing. He stretched his budget already to get that over a similar specced PC, so having to pay another $30 for a adapter that should come with the machine is pretty absurd, and at a time Apple is poised to seize a lot of marketshare, kind of makes them look bad. This is not the Apple we knew, this isn't the Apple that offered a lifetime warranty (which was a bad idea, but it showed their attitude towards consumers). Now apple is very much a me-too type of company, and I predict it won't be too long before it starts to show in their software. And Apple is sitting on 25 billion in the bank, without debt, that they obviously aren't investing in R&D or giving back to the consumer. I don't know what they are hoarding the money for, but money is meant to be invested not hoarded. I hope if they have some greater plan in mind, it becomes clearer soon.

Considering M$ has been taking such a thrashing with Vista, and they've finally come to realize how their legacy cruft and design-by-committee has been holding them back, I am actually very interested to see what they do with their next OS designs.

My boss at my job now is seriously trying to push the higher ups (because they are traditionally very anti-Mac) to get Macbook Pros over Dells for the first time ever, and the nickle and diming Apple is doing is really making the case a lot harder. We'd need both of the VGA/DVI display port adapters, which costs an extra $60 per laptop that you wouldn't have had to pay for 6 months ago. DisplayPort hasn't been gaining traction, and I can easily see in another year apple ditching it for DVI or going to HDMI.

First off while FireWire is preferable to most of us even I recognize the are inherent drawbacks to it on a mobile system, not the least of which are lack of portable firewire peripherals and added drain on the system's battery. The fact that they left a low end model with it, they didn't remove it from their laptops a while back, and they  have put in place work around for many of the reasons FireWire was a requirement sucks but is at least logical.

You are overstating the levels of adaptor loss there has actually been but yeah the loss has been can be quite expensive & problematic.

As far as DisplayPort's traction it is relatively new tech that I've little doubt is around to stay as it supports every major video standard. Even Apple's Mini-DisplayPort implementation supports Dual Link DVI resolutions (meaning it can run a 30 Cinema Display) which is something HDMI cannot do. Apple cancels technologies far more than than they move to lesser implementations of them. You never see Apple replacing USB 2.0 ports with USB 1.1 ports, Gigabit ethernet with 100/10, the FireWire 800 with FireWire 400. The closest they ever really did on that front was to replace DVD-ROM with CD-Burners and then only until combo drives & DVD Burners were ready.

DisplayPort appears to be the coming standard (on PC, unlike CE) and yes, Dell has, and ATi is putting DP-out on their cards these days. Only Apple is using the Mini implementation, tho, so you pretty much have to go to them for an adaptor at this point.

I had a GigE PC mobo in Jan '04, when it was starting to become common. Even then PC NICs were uncommon as networking, as with audio, video etc. were increasingly integrated into core logic chipsets; had been for some time. I/O was right on the back of the board. PS/2 was supported but USB ports were proliferating enough to use any handy ones for m/kb.

Right also about HDMI 1.3. Mostly it needed a better standard of cabling.

Go to say, Newegg, look at decent videocards. They have adaptors for almost everything bundled in, sometimes including audio, which is becoming part of the hardware DRM schemes. (HDMI already routes both thru its connector). Seems Apple is starting to shift to the gaming console model of peripherals.

Bat wrote:

Seems Apple is starting to shift to the gaming console model of peripherals.

A path with both great advantages and disadvantages to Apple & it's customers. Of course Apple is more concerned with it's own advantages and disadvantages than those of it's customers but if it's at least concerned about the advantages and disadvantages of it's customers as a secondary concern in this course, that's better than a lot of common practices out there.

dvpierce wrote:

NuBus

:shudder:

mo' ron wrote:

you realize 99.9% of people have absolutely no way to hook their computer to a projector or other external display, without buying a ridiculous $30 adapter, [...]

Um, 99.9% of people who connect their notebooks to external display devices in the first place.

.tsooJ

Well, what would you have chosen, instead?

.tsooJ

I fail to see what was so particularly bad about it.

.tsooJ

Mobile drives tend to be USB 2.0 not FireWire (though the latter can & do exist if you want to shell out a lot more money). Audio interfaces & video capture devices tend to be less than ideal in terms of portability. Digital video cameras you have a point however there is also the point that dealing with DV typically works better with a better processor and it doesn't typically require the best graphics. There is also the point that if they upgraded USB on the video camera like they should have done already even that would not matter.

Yes, USB does have the same flaw but to a lesser degree (2.5w/port compared to FW's 7w/port) and the USB port is also more ubiquitous. Also remember having both types of ports is more of a draw than just having one.

Thanks for the correction

It was Sony's 4 pin i.Link ports that lacked power.