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Steyr AUG wrote:

Please indead. 72 hours of supplies are not that hard nor expensive to put together in something as mobile as a backpack. Especially for people who know they will eventually need it and have many months to years so that they can build one up. People simply choose not to do it thinking the .gov with bail them out. In major disasters like KT the big G is going to need those three days at least to get everything in position, especially for one of the largest disasters in the nations history. Comparing it to smaller responses is ludicrous.

And when those supplies are under six feet of water, when then ?

I think Barbara Bush's comments after Katrina illustrated the degree to which they are abstracted from the day to day lives of the ruled classes. . . classic 'let them eat cake' attitude. . . but the tipping point ought not to be confused with the mountain of happy horse doo doo that turned people against him.

Bush's overly interventionist handling of international affairs (using 9/11 as the excuse) and his disregard for the financial limitations was the coup' de grace of the effort since the Nixon administration to exert economic pressure on the middle and lower classes to accept less for having to do more work.

Of course the idea that certain people in the panoply of US leaders since (and including) the Clinton administration actually planned to allow 9/11 to happen in order to be seen as a turning point such that the people would accept the further "starving of the beast" is worthy of some consideration in my mind. . . but hey, many people who accept that the holocaust was a planned and well executed conspiracy are unwilling to believe in conspiracy theories on the part of the US government, so. . . 

. . . scully. . .

point was, the third reich was the greatest and most well executed "conspiracy" in history. Conspiracy theorists are marginalized because nobody wants to admit it can happen despite history or how fragile the construct we call freedom is.

Haven't seen any episodes of "Lone Gunmen". I'll have to order some DVDs it seems.

StaticAge wrote:

isaly wrote:

9/11...

...willing to believe in conspiracy theories on the part of the US government, so. . . 

. . . scully. . .

As I am fond of pointing out, the pilot episode of the X-Files spin off "Lone Gunmen" had a plot where the department of defense hijacking a passenger airline to crash into the WTC towers to blame on a terrorist organization which would launch a global war on terror and keep defense budget flowing... and it aired months before 9/11.

On March 4, 2001, 6 months and 7 days to be exact.

ShnickyShnack wrote:

I agree that Bush gets too much of the blame for Katrina. Truth is, the governments of many local areas just plain collapsed (look into how the cops of New Orleans behaved, for instance).

Many state governments were lousy as hell, but I think all were overwhelmed. The feds were pretty damned awful -- they're supposed to be the emergency back-up, the failsafe; but they definitely screwed the pooch.

The thing that makes me angriest is how obvious it was to the White House to maintain the image of it all rather than actually helping out.

I don't think the White House came off looking very good either. Nobody believed they were doing enough, or doing what little they were in a timely fashion. It also became apparent that Bush was picking good ole boy buddies instead of qualified, competent leaders for various positions.

Poppy Bush's presidency was hurt politically by inadequate FEMA response during Hurricane Andrew, 3 months before the '92 election.

There is ALWAYS FEMA criticism with a really large hurricane in a populated area.  That's really not abnormal.  However, you have no political cover when it's exposed that you appointed an Arabian horse devotee to head that agency. 

For contrast, and in response to 1992, Clinton made the head of FEMA a cabinet position I think.  Then Bush 2.0 reversed that, though I'd probably agree that cabinet level is excessive.  Still, you didn't need to appoint Brownie to make your point but I'm sure that was part of the conservative knee-jerk ABC (Anything But Clinton) "policy reviews" that were very popular in early 2001.  Oh right, those ABC's really blew back on us on 9/11, no?

Steyr AUG wrote:

ScifiterX wrote:

Please the food is the least of it and you severely overestimate the mobility of every thing Steyr. Water requirements are 1 gallon per person per day. Try calculating that for a family of 4 and fitting that in a backpack. When I lived alone I know it took me a couple months to afford the recommended hurricane supplies and when I had to evacuate at least half of what I "needed" got left behind in the time allotted me to get the smurf off the beach. If I hadn't had had someone to pick me up and somewhere to go it would have been far far less than that. Many of the residents in my apartment complex were in that very position.

Hardly. Having build many such supplies for a variety of people it really isnt that hard. It just takes a bit of dedication to ensuring that one has a plan to survive. Obviously many people dont.

And with the multiday lead time of HK, unless you were out on the beach waiting for it to arrive, there was plenty of forwarning to get everything together for all but the most desperatly immobile. For them the local, county and state chain of goverment was supposed to get them out, with the big .gov being called in when their abilities were overrun.

Plus, its a backpack, all you have to do is grab it.

The complex I was in was for low income & disabled individuals. Even for those of us whom were dedicated days is not enough. It often took weeks to months to scrimp and save for extra nonperishable food & batteries (not the few days advance warning that the storm is coming and the few hours we have to get of the barrier hours they give to get off the barrier islands before they close the bridges in preparation for the storm) not all of us can drive so we have to call in those who may also be evacuating and need room for their supplies as well. I can tell you look at it from the point of view of someone WITH resources. I tell you now it's a pretty arrogant assumption to assume there's alway time or resources.

ScifiterX wrote:

Steyr AUG wrote:

ScifiterX wrote:

Please the food is the least of it and you severely overestimate the mobility of every thing Steyr. Water requirements are 1 gallon per person per day. Try calculating that for a family of 4 and fitting that in a backpack. When I lived alone I know it took me a couple months to afford the recommended hurricane supplies and when I had to evacuate at least half of what I "needed" got left behind in the time allotted me to get the smurf off the beach. If I hadn't had had someone to pick me up and somewhere to go it would have been far far less than that. Many of the residents in my apartment complex were in that very position.

Hardly. Having build many such supplies for a variety of people it really isnt that hard. It just takes a bit of dedication to ensuring that one has a plan to survive. Obviously many people dont.

And with the multiday lead time of HK, unless you were out on the beach waiting for it to arrive, there was plenty of forwarning to get everything together for all but the most desperatly immobile. For them the local, county and state chain of goverment was supposed to get them out, with the big .gov being called in when their abilities were overrun.

Plus, its a backpack, all you have to do is grab it.

The complex I was in was for low income & disabled individuals. Even for those of us whom were dedicated days is not enough. It often took weeks to months to scrimp and save for extra nonperishable food & batteries (not the few days advance warning that the storm is coming and the few hours we have to get of the barrier hours they give to get off the barrier islands before they close the bridges in preparation for the storm) not all of us can drive so we have to call in those who may also be evacuating and need room for their supplies as well. I can tell you look at it from the point of view of someone WITH resources. I tell you now it's a pretty arrogant assumption to assume there's alway time or resources.

Preparedness is not arrogance.

Days is the time people had to grab and go. Months and years is the time they should have spent preparing the basic necessities their lives depend on to use when disaster strikes.

If people don't have what they need to evac a hurricane zone they should be getting them together right now. If not all at once, a little bit at a time. They got ~6 months till it starts up again.

Steyr AUG wrote:

ScifiterX wrote:

Steyr AUG wrote:

Hardly. Having build many such supplies for a variety of people it really isnt that hard. It just takes a bit of dedication to ensuring that one has a plan to survive. Obviously many people dont.

And with the multiday lead time of HK, unless you were out on the beach waiting for it to arrive, there was plenty of forwarning to get everything together for all but the most desperatly immobile. For them the local, county and state chain of goverment was supposed to get them out, with the big .gov being called in when their abilities were overrun.

Plus, its a backpack, all you have to do is grab it.

The complex I was in was for low income & disabled individuals. Even for those of us whom were dedicated days is not enough. It often took weeks to months to scrimp and save for extra nonperishable food & batteries (not the few days advance warning that the storm is coming and the few hours we have to get of the barrier hours they give to get off the barrier islands before they close the bridges in preparation for the storm) not all of us can drive so we have to call in those who may also be evacuating and need room for their supplies as well. I can tell you look at it from the point of view of someone WITH resources. I tell you now it's a pretty arrogant assumption to assume there's alway time or resources.

Preparedness is not arrogance.

Days is the time people had to grab and go. Months and years is the time they should have spent preparing the basic necessities their lives depend on to use when disaster strikes.

If people don't have what they need to evac a hurricane zone they should be getting them together right now. If not all at once, a little bit at a time. They got ~6 months till it starts up again.

No preparedness is not arrogance but assuming everyone can be prepared 24/7/365 for every contingency is arrogance. I have a backpack What I can fit is a couple set of clothes and maybe a couple cans of soup or a flashlight or a roll of toilet paper. When they decide to close the bridge it is done days ahead of time you don't have days to evacuate you have hours. Why because the evacuate the islands early. You cant keep going back until you have every thing you need and on top of that they shut down the public transportation which is really the only reliable way some of us have to get around. Several hurricanes (including close calls where they only evacuated the beaches but nothing ended up happening), I have literally had hours to grab what little I could carry to mom's and try to protect what I couldn't bring with tarps. No few days warning! Our few days warning was a hurricane is coming in a few days so we are closing the bridges tonight and canceling bus service. Use that time to prepare to leave.

If he meant that, he should have said that. The trouble is his words read less that and more everyone CAN & SHOULD have some sort of plan and a decent pack that actually fits and enables carrying with all that crap in it and have it read at any and all times.

well. . . you know. . . steyr can be a bit. . . well. . . "terse?" sometimes? I'm going to give him credit for understanding that people in nursing homes/hospitals/jails/mental institutions/bedridden or sufficiently mentally ill at home/ aren't going to be able to prepare and he was just assuming, in his unique steyr way, that we'd all understand.

radarman wrote:

ShnickyShnack wrote:

I agree that Bush gets too much of the blame for Katrina. Truth is, the governments of many local areas just plain collapsed (look into how the cops of New Orleans behaved, for instance).

Many state governments were lousy as hell, but I think all were overwhelmed. The feds were pretty damned awful -- they're supposed to be the emergency back-up, the failsafe; but they definitely screwed the pooch.

The thing that makes me angriest is how obvious it was to the White House to maintain the image of it all rather than actually helping out.

I don't think the White House came off looking very good either. Nobody believed they were doing enough, or doing what little they were in a timely fashion. It also became apparent that Bush was picking good ole boy buddies instead of qualified, competent leaders for various positions.

Well, of course everyone along the Gulf has FEMA stories ...