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Gurlugon wrote:

The trick for home defense is to use Steady Aim, not Deep Impact.

I'm aware of various aspects of the issue, and certainly not suggesting high penetration rounds for home use- not even in brick-walled homes. Rifles are generally unsuited to the task. There are specialized low-pen rounds available here and there, and certain shotgun gauges even have loadings with Jake's beloved rubber projectiles, tho I've not seen them for retail sale. Sometimes, tho, a degree of barrier penetration might be called for even in a home scenario. Rubber slugs are unsuited to that.

There is, tho, no single 'trick,' no magic bullet.

Daniel wrote:

Pariah wrote:

The difference between a gun enthusiast and a gun fetishist is that an enthusiast can understand reasonable limits on firepower while a fetishist thinks he has a right to own a howitzer.

Who gets to define reasonable?

Not you, obviously.

Better yet, I nominate the founding fathers.

Gurlugon wrote:

The trick for home defense is to use Steady Aim, not Deep Impact.

Across the board, for  most people, a shotgun might be the best choice for home defense.

Ribtorus wrote:

sturner wrote:

Let's just use the spray and pray method. So break out the PPsh's lock and load a 50 round mag, and lets rock and roll in the home!

You guys are silly.

Reminds me of Duke returning to his windmill, preferring to "soften up" dark rooms in his house before he enters. Brenner, of course, bears the scars.


Points for who gets that.

That's way over my head. I ain't had no proper fetchin' up or no book learnin'. It take most all I got to use this here compting machine.

Tallgeese wrote:

Daniel wrote:

Pariah wrote:

There are plenty of things that are legal that aren't rights.
I would never want the law so restrictive that Honest Joe finds it difficult to acquire a weapon that would be suitable for personal defense and I tend to agree that complete bans (like DC's) are a very bad idea for a few reasons, none of which have anything to do with the 2nd.
but....
I would accept as reasonable something like a community banning such powerful weapons that might have the punch to go thru two or three houses before expending their velocity. That sort of power is a real danger to innocents in the area even if used to protect a house.
No good preventing a break in if the bullet that kills the intruder keeps going and kills some poor sap next door.

Just about any rifle round will go through walls.  And bolt actions, used for competitive target shooting, will send that round through more walls than a semi-auto AK or AR will.

I don't know what you use for target shooting, but a Winchester 30-30 round or a 30-06 is not very different from the 7.62 used in an AK-47.

It's not the round, it's how fast it's going.  Muzzle velocities of AK's and AR's are comparatively low.

AP-Boston
April 20, 1775

Scores Killed, Hundreds Injured as Para-Military
Extremists Riot in Boston Area

National guard units seeking to confiscate a cache of recently banned assault weapons were ambushed on April 19th by elements of a paramilitary extremist faction. Military and law enforcement sources estimate that 72 were killed and more than 200 injured before government forces were compelled to withdraw.

Speaking after the clash Massachusetts Governor Thomas Gage declared that the extremist faction, which was made up of local citizens, has links to the radical right-wing tax protest movement. Gage blamed the extremists for recent incidents of vandalism directed against internal revenue offices. The governor, who described the group's organizers as "criminals," issued an executive order authorizing the summary arrest of any individual who has interfered with the government's efforts to secure law and order.

The military raid on the extremist arsenal followed widespread refusal by the local citizenry to turn over recently outlawed assault weapons. Gage issued a ban on military-style assault weapons and ammunition earlier in the week. This decision followed a meeting early this month between government and military leaders at which the governor authorized the forcible confiscation of illegal arms. One government official, speaking on condition of anonymity, pointed out "none of these people would have been killed had the extremists obeyed the law and turned over their weapons voluntarily."

Government troops initially succeeded in confiscating a large supply of outlawed weapons and ammunition. However, troops attempting to seize arms and ammunition in Lexington met with resistance from heavily armed extremists who had been tipped off regarding the government's plans. During a tense standoff in Lexington 's town park, National Guard Colonel Francis Smith, commander of the government operation, ordered the armed group to surrender and return to their homes. The impasse was broken by a single shot, which was reportedly fired by one of the right-wing extremists.

Eight civilians were killed in the ensuing exchange. Ironically, the local citizenry blamed government forces rather than the extremists for the civilian deaths. Before order could be restored, armed citizens from surrounding areas had descended upon the guard units. Colonel Smith, finding his forces overmatched by the armed mob, ordered a retreat.

Governor Gage has called upon citizens to support the state/national joint task force in its effort to restore law and order. The governor has also demanded the surrender of those responsible for planning and leading the attack against the government troops. Samuel Adams, Paul Revere, and John Hancock, who have been identified as "ringleaders" of the extremist faction, remain at large.

Tallgeese wrote:

Daniel wrote:

Tallgeese wrote:

I don't know what you use for target shooting, but a Winchester 30-30 round or a 30-06 is not very different from the 7.62 used in an AK-47.

It's not the round, it's how fast it's going.  Muzzle velocities of AK's and AR's are comparatively low.

Muzzle velocity of an M-16 is >3000 fps. AK-47 > 2300 fps. Bolt action hunting rifles firing Winchester 30-30 typically have muzzle velocities 2300-2800 fps.

An M-16 shoots itty bitty rounds; of course they go fast.  I do not dispute your other figures either, but you're cherry picking them by comparing a 7.62 Soviet round with a 30-30.  A .30-06 in the heaviest bullet weight is ~2,500fps, while a 150gr rockets out just under 3,000fps.  And let's not focus exclusively on muzzle velocity, either.  The fact is that AR-15's and AK-47's are commonly described in the media as "high powered military-style rifles" when, really, an AR-15 is not nearly as powerful as, say, a bolt action FN SPR.

That depends on what your definition of typical is, and if we are limiting the discussion to only penetrating power, or the term "high-powered" in general.

ShnickyShnack wrote:

Ribtorus wrote:

sturner wrote:

Let's just use the spray and pray method. So break out the PPsh's lock and load a 50 round mag, and lets rock and roll in the home!

You guys are silly.

Reminds me of Duke returning to his windmill, preferring to "soften up" dark rooms in his house before he enters. Brenner, of course, bears the scars.


Points for who gets that.

Awsome reference, man.

"I like to soften up a room before I enter it."

A point to you.

Jdude wrote:

jkahless wrote:

Jdude wrote:

Better yet, I nominate the founding fathers.

Cause 200 year old dead guys know so much more about modern issues than people alive today!   

The issues are the same, sir, only the names and faces change.

I would like to take a M1a1 tank way back. To them it would be a land going battleship. I would use it to help with the cherry tree overpopulation issue. ;P

Point to Bat as well.

Trudeau revealed his deep knowledge of something, at any rate.

Jdude wrote:

jkahless wrote:

Jdude wrote:

Better yet, I nominate the founding fathers.

Cause 200 year old dead guys know so much more about modern issues than people alive today!   

The issues are the same, sir, only the names and faces change.

That's a bit of a cheap answer. "Nothing ever changes, so no point checking to see if it's changed."