Forums | MacLife

frankly · 2009-01-27 7:38 am

Pariah wrote:
I wonder how the continuing drop in Apple's presence in professional settings (as a percentage of sales) will effect future Macs.
Go back 6 or 7 years and a large percentage of posters here were "Mac Professionals". Now the pro segment has all but disappeared. Seems that's the Apple strategy, basically abandoning the pro segment, at least the printing/publishing one. They just don't make anything that makes sense for pre-press anymore.

I think Adobe's recent shift in their product timeline (no 64-bit photoshop until CS5) and also their ridiculous interface is more to blame than Apple's product line. Why wouldn't a Mac Pro work for anyone in that industry? Processing power, loads of memory, and large/fast hard drives is important to that segment and the Mac Pro fits that description perfectly.

mrreet2001 · 2009-01-27 8:00 am

because he is to cheap to buy a workstation class computer shrug

frankly · 2009-01-27 8:24 am

mrreet2001 wrote:
because he is to cheap to buy a workstation class computer

Perhaps, but we're not talking about consumer machines here. He specifically said that there is nothing in the lineup for Mac Professionals and professionals do spend money on fast machines because it enables them to get more work done in a shorter amount of time. And time is money so the machine ends up paying for itself.

Last edited by frankly (2009-01-27 8:24 am)

mrreet2001 · 2009-01-27 8:31 am

he claims cheap off the shelf PCs are as good as workstation class computer such as the MP or lets say a dell t7xxx

frankly · 2009-01-27 9:27 am

mrreet2001 wrote:
he claims cheap off the shelf PCs are as good as workstation class computer such as the MP or lets say a dell t7xxx

I'm willing to stipulate that is true for the sake of argument. In the real world creative professionals and companies don't build their own machines with off the shelf parts. They buy machines with warranties from companies that they have a business relationship with. Knowing that their machines are not going to fail and that they can get them replaced or repaired if they do is MUCH more important than saving a few bucks.

The argument may hold from a consumer perspective but it does not when we are talking about professionals.

wellfleation · 2009-01-27 10:34 am

Bat wrote:
Things do seem to have gone a bit OT in the old way..

The subject, from the thread title, isn't about what products Apple's making, who exactly here they satisfy and who otherwise. Basically it's about the effect, if any, the recession has had, is having, will have on Apple- not about whether they make a mid-tower, etc.

They had a record smurfing quarter when other companies are either losing their shirts, laying off workers, or going completely out of business (I'm looking at you 60 year old Circuit City). When will people realize that they are doing thing right? Doubters are starting to look looney at this point.

Frank
The United States lost 2.6 million jobs last year, the most in any single year since World War II. Manufacturing is at a 28-year low and even Obama's economists say unemployment could top 10 percent before the recession ends. One in 10 homeowners are at risk of foreclosure and the dollar continues its slide in value.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28825558

It may not matter how 'right' Apple does things, and pre-Recession 'doubts' don't necessarily relate to the current world economic downturn. Best Buy's busyness near you is an anecdote, and for that matter may reflect CC's closure, as they haven't gotten shipments of new product in months. In many places they're the only game in town, and their traffic will reflect that. BB management made a statement last month that they hadn't seen things that bad in their entire history.

I expect Apple's lesser dependence on loans due to their large cash reserves will help cushion them, and they won't fold unless this turns into Great Depression II... but they've been oathe to tap those reserves in past, and more to the point, people are simply buying less. Market shrinkage will affect them at some point, likely already; the questions are in timing and degree.

In my business I deal with a lot of people on a daily basis. I am seeing people losing their jobs on a DAILY basis, their lives destroyed. My wife, who makes more than me, is seriously worried about her job. She deals with corporate accounts, BIG ones. The large businesses she deals with are laying people off in huge numbers (people who earn good money), buying MUCH less from her (she doesn't sell but maintains accounts - she relies on bonuses that are tied into her salary), and thus, our budget has been impacted like nothing before.

Bottom line is I will not be buying anything extravagant/$ in the far future. That being said, although Apple has had an extremely good 1/4, the recession is only beginning to blow forward now. Apple will be effected, even on a grand scale just like everyone else. But they will bounce back too.

frankly · 2009-01-27 11:02 am

wellfleation wrote:
In my business I deal with a lot of people on a daily basis. I am seeing people losing their jobs on a DAILY basis, their lives destroyed. My wife, who makes more than me, is seriously worried about her job. She deals with corporate accounts, BIG ones. The large businesses she deals with are laying people off in huge numbers (people who earn good money), buying MUCH less from her (she doesn't sell but maintains accounts - she relies on bonuses that are tied into her salary), and thus, our budget has been impacted like nothing before.

Bottom line is I will not be buying anything extravagant/$ in the far future. That being said, although Apple has had an extremely good 1/4, the recession is only beginning to blow forward now. Apple will be effected, even on a grand scale just like everyone else. But they will bounce back too.

It is a tough climate right now. I know many people (family, friends, acquaintances) that have lost their jobs as well. However, saying that Apple will be affected leaves it extremely wide open. Even if they are down 1% from the year ago quarter at some point this year we could say they were affected. What I am saying is that I don't think they will be hurt in the way these other companies are being hurt. I don't expect them to post any quarterly losses. I don't expect massive (i.e. 1000+ employees) layoffs. The fact is that we are IN the recession, even though it is just officially the beginning of it. We have been in an economic downturn for a little over a year. And yet, even with the recession officially beginning and all of the bad news that you, me, and others have pointed out, Apple had a record quarter.

This bears repeating. They had a record quarter. They didn't just do okay last quarter. They broke company records. They didn't just survive the quarter. They came out of it with boatloads of cash. So, they may be in for a bumpy ride but based on the evidence I don't think they will have anywhere near the problems that other companies are having because quite frankly, they are a well-oiled machine at this point. They have their product lineup in place. They have cash in the bank. They have a HUGE profit margin on their products. They have deals in place with their parts suppliers to keep their margins high and I predict those prices will get even better as other orders to those suppliers dry up.

wellfleation · 2009-01-27 11:13 am

frankly wrote:
wellfleation wrote:
In my business I deal with a lot of people on a daily basis. I am seeing people losing their jobs on a DAILY basis, their lives destroyed. My wife, who makes more than me, is seriously worried about her job. She deals with corporate accounts, BIG ones. The large businesses she deals with are laying people off in huge numbers (people who earn good money), buying MUCH less from her (she doesn't sell but maintains accounts - she relies on bonuses that are tied into her salary), and thus, our budget has been impacted like nothing before.

Bottom line is I will not be buying anything extravagant/$ in the far future. That being said, although Apple has had an extremely good 1/4, the recession is only beginning to blow forward now. Apple will be effected, even on a grand scale just like everyone else. But they will bounce back too.
It is a tough climate right now. I know many people (family, friends, acquaintances) that have lost their jobs as well. However, saying that Apple will be affected leaves it extremely wide open. Even if they are down 1% from the year ago quarter at some point this year we could say they were affected. What I am saying is that I don't think they will be hurt in the way these other companies are being hurt. I don't expect them to post any quarterly losses. I don't expect massive (i.e. 1000+ employees) layoffs. The fact is that we are IN the recession, even though it is just officially the beginning of it. We have been in an economic downturn for a little over a year. And yet, even with the recession officially beginning and all of the bad news that you, me, and others have pointed out, Apple had a record quarter.

This bears repeating. They had a record quarter. They didn't just do okay last quarter. They broke company records. They didn't just survive the quarter. They came out of it with boatloads of cash. So, they may be in for a bumpy ride but based on the evidence I don't think they will have anywhere near the problems that other companies are having because quite frankly, they are a well-oiled machine at this point. They have their product lineup in place. They have cash in the bank. They have a HUGE profit margin on their products. They have deals in place with their parts suppliers to keep their margins high and I predict those prices will get even better as other orders to those suppliers dry up.

Even though we all know the recession began at least a year ago, my point is that it is really hitting hard NOW, not last 1/4. Although I agree with you that Apple will not suffer the loses other companies are suffering, they too will feel substantial effects, although less so than weaker companies. smurf, their stock is worth 1/2 as much as it was a year ago. I finally convince my mother to buy Apple stock 3 years ago. Now she is freaking out.

frankly · 2009-01-27 11:31 am

wellfleation wrote:
Even though we all know the recession began at least a year ago, my point is that it is really hitting hard NOW, not last 1/4. Although I agree with you that Apple will not suffer the loses other companies are suffering, they too will feel substantial effects, although less so than weaker companies. smurf, their stock is worth 1/2 as much as it was a year ago. I finally convince my mother to buy Apple stock 3 years ago. Now she is freaking out.

It may only have started to hit your family right now but 2.6 MILLION jobs were lost in 2008. I don't think that any of those millions of families would agree with your assertion that it is just starting to hit hard now. Banks were shuttered and/or bought up by other banks. The housing market has been in a slowdown or halt (depending on where you live) for well OVER a year. There is no credible way that you can say this is just starting to hit hard now. Try telling that to the 2.6 million that lost their jobs in 2008.

Frank

Mr. T · 2009-01-27 1:57 pm

frankly wrote:
Pariah wrote:
I wonder how the continuing drop in Apple's presence in professional settings (as a percentage of sales) will effect future Macs.
Go back 6 or 7 years and a large percentage of posters here were "Mac Professionals". Now the pro segment has all but disappeared. Seems that's the Apple strategy, basically abandoning the pro segment, at least the printing/publishing one. They just don't make anything that makes sense for pre-press anymore.
I think Adobe's recent shift in their product timeline (no 64-bit photoshop until CS5) and also their ridiculous interface is more to blame than Apple's product line. Why wouldn't a Mac Pro work for anyone in that industry? Processing power, loads of memory, and large/fast hard drives is important to that segment and the Mac Pro fits that description perfectly.

The ridiculous interface is in CS4 which hasn't been out long enough to explain the phenomenon noted by Pariah (plus, you can still revert to the old interface). The lack of 64-bit Photoshop is Apple's fault, for not updating Carbon.

Last edited by Mr. T (2009-01-27 1:59 pm)

frankly · 2009-01-27 2:34 pm

Mr. T wrote:
frankly wrote:
Pariah wrote:
I wonder how the continuing drop in Apple's presence in professional settings (as a percentage of sales) will effect future Macs.
Go back 6 or 7 years and a large percentage of posters here were "Mac Professionals". Now the pro segment has all but disappeared. Seems that's the Apple strategy, basically abandoning the pro segment, at least the printing/publishing one. They just don't make anything that makes sense for pre-press anymore.
I think Adobe's recent shift in their product timeline (no 64-bit photoshop until CS5) and also their ridiculous interface is more to blame than Apple's product line. Why wouldn't a Mac Pro work for anyone in that industry? Processing power, loads of memory, and large/fast hard drives is important to that segment and the Mac Pro fits that description perfectly.
The ridiculous interface is in CS4 which hasn't been out long enough to explain the phenomenon noted by Pariah (plus, you can still revert to the old interface). The lack of 64-bit Photoshop is Apple's fault, for not updating Carbon.

1) No actual data was provided showing a real shift away from the Mac by creative professionals so this is all just conjecture.
2) It was never explained how Apple abandoned the pro segment, which was the main point of the post and my response.
3) When did Apple drop Carbon? When is Adobe releasing the 64-bit Mac version? That's not a valid excuse on behalf of a software company that large. Especially not one whose clients tend to work with some really large files.

ScifiterX · 2009-01-27 4:09 pm

Apple didn't drop Carbon AFAIK so much as they simply decided to not upgrade it from 32-bit to 64-bit. Adobe is in a snit because their OS X apps still rely heavily on carbon and they do not want to invest resources in updating their code base to Cocoa (which does support 64-bit).

That said I really don't expect Apple will be using Carbon to create any of it's own Apps. However Apple is likely to maintain the API to run Carbon apps in 10.6 and possibly even 10.7 and/or 10.8. I can't say with any degree of certainty beyond that though.

Mr. T · 2009-01-27 5:02 pm

ScifiterX wrote:
Apple didn't drop Carbon AFAIK so much as they simply decided to not upgrade it from 32-bit to 64-bit. Adobe is in a snit because their OS X apps still rely heavily on carbon and they do not want to invest resources in updating their code base to Cocoa (which does support 64-bit).

That said I really don't expect Apple will be using Carbon to create any of it's own Apps. However Apple is likely to maintain the API to run Carbon apps in 10.6 and possibly even 10.7 and/or 10.8. I can't say with any degree of certainty beyond that though.

Carbon is the only way to use C/C++, which are the dominant languages today. It's not going anywhere, and will probably be updated in Snow Leo. Apple pulled the rug out from Adobe's feet.

ScifiterX · 2009-01-27 5:20 pm

Dominant but not necessarily superior. Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't Objective-C/Objective-C++/Objective-C 2.0 are based on C/C++ even though there are significant differences in the actual syntax.

ScifiterX · 2009-01-27 5:50 pm

As far as pulling the rug, Apple has been pushing Cocoa and Objective-C for years and canceled 64-bit Carbon development less than 2 months after CS3 shipped. (CS3 was shipped 1 year & 9 months ago.) Admitted it was a year after them discussing porting Carbon for 64-bit but it was hardly an unannounced yank.

wellfleation · 2009-01-27 6:06 pm

frankly wrote:
wellfleation wrote:
Even though we all know the recession began at least a year ago, my point is that it is really hitting hard NOW, not last 1/4. Although I agree with you that Apple will not suffer the loses other companies are suffering, they too will feel substantial effects, although less so than weaker companies. smurf, their stock is worth 1/2 as much as it was a year ago. I finally convince my mother to buy Apple stock 3 years ago. Now she is freaking out.
It may only have started to hit your family right now

My job is recession proof my wife's not so much but her work would be hard to replace and her boss knows it. The writing is on the wall for so many others though and I've seen so much already through friends, work, and such.

Pariah · 2009-01-27 6:56 pm

frankly wrote:
Mr. T wrote:
frankly wrote:

I think Adobe's recent shift in their product timeline (no 64-bit photoshop until CS5) and also their ridiculous interface is more to blame than Apple's product line. Why wouldn't a Mac Pro work for anyone in that industry? Processing power, loads of memory, and large/fast hard drives is important to that segment and the Mac Pro fits that description perfectly.
The ridiculous interface is in CS4 which hasn't been out long enough to explain the phenomenon noted by Pariah (plus, you can still revert to the old interface). The lack of 64-bit Photoshop is Apple's fault, for not updating Carbon.
1) No actual data was provided showing a real shift away from the Mac by creative professionals so this is all just conjecture.
2) It was never explained how Apple abandoned the pro segment, which was the main point of the post and my response.
3) When did Apple drop Carbon? When is Adobe releasing the 64-bit Mac version? That's not a valid excuse on behalf of a software company that large. Especially not one whose clients tend to work with some really large files.

1) No data, just my observation from working in printing for the last thirty years. Ten years ago PCs were rare in printing. Macs ruled that sphere. But now most shops are evenly split and many are or are on their way to being Windows only shops.
2) Sure an 8 core Xeon rig is fast, in lots of things way faster. Just not in 2d. A $1000 quad core Core2 from Dell is delivers 80% of the speed of a $3000 Mac Pro.
A very large expenditure for little gain. Combine that with the integrations of Adobe apps where once you are in the suite the host OS barely matters. You are in the AdobeOS.
So the price gap has just become too large and the difference between OSs is much less significant.
So why buy a Mac? No model really hits the spot. You have a very focused home computer in the iMac or a top notch workstation, both of which cost 100%+ more than more appropriate machines from other vendors.

mrreet2001 · 2009-01-27 7:44 pm

Pariah wrote:
A $1000 quad core Core2 from Dell is delivers 80% of the speed of a $3000 Mac Pro.

thats only 8 hours more work you could get done in a week ... no biggie

frankly · 2009-01-27 9:26 pm

wellfleation wrote:
frankly wrote:
wellfleation wrote:
Even though we all know the recession began at least a year ago, my point is that it is really hitting hard NOW, not last 1/4. Although I agree with you that Apple will not suffer the loses other companies are suffering, they too will feel substantial effects, although less so than weaker companies. smurf, their stock is worth 1/2 as much as it was a year ago. I finally convince my mother to buy Apple stock 3 years ago. Now she is freaking out.
It may only have started to hit your family right now
My job is recession proof my wife's not so much but her work would be hard to replace and her boss knows it. The writing is on the wall for so many others though and I've seen so much already through friends, work, and such.

I agree with you completely as I've also seen it with family and friends. However, you failed to address my main disagreement with what you said in that the recession is not just starting to hit hard right now. You made no acknowledgement of the 2.6 million people that lost their jobs in 2008 or the people all over the country that haven't been able to sell their houses for 6 months to a year. For them, the recession has been hitting for a while now.

frankly · 2009-01-27 9:36 pm

mrreet2001 wrote:
Pariah wrote:
A $1000 quad core Core2 from Dell is delivers 80% of the speed of a $3000 Mac Pro.
thats only 8 hours more work you could get done in a week ... no biggie

Not to mention that the "80% of the speed" is likely pulled out of the air as an estimate.

wellfleation · 2009-01-27 9:57 pm

frankly wrote:
wellfleation wrote:
frankly wrote:

It may only have started to hit your family right now
My job is recession proof my wife's not so much but her work would be hard to replace and her boss knows it. The writing is on the wall for so many others though and I've seen so much already through friends, work, and such.
I agree with you completely as I've also seen it with family and friends. However, you failed to address my main disagreement with what you said in that the recession is not just starting to hit hard right now. You made no acknowledgement of the 2.6 million people that lost their jobs in 2008 or the people all over the country that haven't been able to sell their houses for 6 months to a year. For them, the recession has been hitting for a while now.

I think it is pretty clear it is worse now than a year ago and the concession is it will get worse before it gets better. I hope we've hit bottom but it clearly does not look that way.

Bat · 2009-01-27 10:40 pm

It's getting worse month by month; moreover, it's only really hitting now in one key sector...

Layoffs Get Worse in Silicon Valley
Layoffs will grow and smaller firms may find they can't survive

It took longer for the slowing global economy to be felt by technology firms in Silicon Valley than it took for the impact to be felt elsewhere in the tech world. However, when the recession finally made its way to Silicon Valley, it hit many firms very hard.

DailyTech wrote that Silicon Valley first felt the economic pinch of the recession in December 2008. Reuters reports that layoffs are now mounting as many technology firms in Silicon Valley rush to strengthen their positions by reducing expenses and cutting jobs.

Silicon Valley lost 11,700 jobs last year reports Reuters, and that number is only the beginning according to analysts. Adam Charlson, senior partner at executive search firm Korn/Ferry International said, "Organizations are saying, 'What is the absolute nuclear winter? Let's plan for that.' What you're seeing now is organizations putting those plans into reality."

http://www.dailytech.com/Layoffs+Get+Wo … e14058.htm

Even without any layoffs themselves, Apple can be affected by the layoffs, changes and abandonment of product lines & sectors etc. by suppliers like Phillips. This may lead to unexpected, forced changes in the product roadmap.

frankly · 2009-01-27 10:49 pm

wellfleation wrote:
frankly wrote:
wellfleation wrote:

My job is recession proof my wife's not so much but her work would be hard to replace and her boss knows it. The writing is on the wall for so many others though and I've seen so much already through friends, work, and such.
I agree with you completely as I've also seen it with family and friends. However, you failed to address my main disagreement with what you said in that the recession is not just starting to hit hard right now. You made no acknowledgement of the 2.6 million people that lost their jobs in 2008 or the people all over the country that haven't been able to sell their houses for 6 months to a year. For them, the recession has been hitting for a while now.
I think it is pretty clear it is worse now than a year ago and the concession is it will get worse before it gets better. I hope we've hit bottom but it clearly does not look that way.

I agree that it is worse now, but it wasn't a walk in the park last year for millions of families, millions. There are only about 100 million households in the U.S.

Mr. T · 2009-01-27 11:23 pm

ScifiterX wrote:
Dominant but not necessarily superior. Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't Objective-C/Objective-C++/Objective-C 2.0 are based on C/C++ even though there are significant differences in the actual syntax.

You could call it more robust, but that robustness comes at the expense of extra work at run-time. It is also much less widely known (popularity is a big consideration). C++ is still going to be in widespread use long after Objective C is gone.

ScifiterX wrote:
As far as pulling the rug, Apple has been pushing Cocoa and Objective-C for years and canceled 64-bit Carbon development less than 2 months after CS3 shipped. (CS3 was shipped 1 year & 9 months ago.) Admitted it was a year after them discussing porting Carbon for 64-bit but it was hardly an unannounced yank.

If it was between one or the other, making Objective-C a priority wasn't a bad move, but its unreasonable to expect multi-platform developers like Adobe to completely rewrite their flagship products just because Apple is slow to becoming fully 64 bit.

Last edited by Mr. T (2009-01-27 11:30 pm)

ScifiterX · 2009-01-27 11:57 pm

Only because MS is likely to be the dominant software distributor for a long time yet and is unlikely to readily move past using C/C++ even if & when one or more languages which have advantages over C/C++, Objective-C/Objective-C++/Objective-C 2.0 and whatever is in use at the time come into usage.

I won't completely argue that. Apple even hosed many of it own in house developers when it decided it couldn't actually port both Cocoa & Carbon as 64-bit as evidenced by Final Cut Pro 6 which was released as a 32-bit Carbon app around the time of Apple's stopping development of 64-bit Carbon. Of course based on it's upgrade history, it's (FCS3 with FCP7) due to be released this year's WWDC.

Forums | MacLife

#51 2009-01-27 7:38 am

Re: What recession?

Pariah wrote:

#52 2009-01-27 8:00 am

Re: What recession?

#53 2009-01-27 8:24 am

Re: What recession?

mrreet2001 wrote:

#54 2009-01-27 8:31 am

Re: What recession?

#55 2009-01-27 9:27 am

Re: What recession?

mrreet2001 wrote:

#56 2009-01-27 10:34 am

Re: What recession?

Bat wrote:

#57 2009-01-27 11:02 am

Re: What recession?

wellfleation wrote:

#58 2009-01-27 11:13 am

Re: What recession?

frankly wrote:

wellfleation wrote:

#59 2009-01-27 11:31 am

Re: What recession?

wellfleation wrote:

#60 2009-01-27 1:57 pm

Re: What recession?

frankly wrote:

Pariah wrote:

#61 2009-01-27 2:34 pm

Re: What recession?

Mr. T wrote:

frankly wrote:

Pariah wrote:

#62 2009-01-27 4:09 pm

Re: What recession?

#63 2009-01-27 5:02 pm

Re: What recession?

ScifiterX wrote:

#64 2009-01-27 5:20 pm

Re: What recession?

#65 2009-01-27 5:50 pm

Re: What recession?

#66 2009-01-27 6:06 pm

Re: What recession?

frankly wrote:

wellfleation wrote:

#67 2009-01-27 6:56 pm

Re: What recession?

frankly wrote:

Mr. T wrote:

frankly wrote:

#68 2009-01-27 7:44 pm

Re: What recession?

Pariah wrote:

#69 2009-01-27 9:26 pm

Re: What recession?

wellfleation wrote:

frankly wrote:

wellfleation wrote:

#70 2009-01-27 9:36 pm

Re: What recession?

mrreet2001 wrote:

Pariah wrote:

#71 2009-01-27 9:57 pm

Re: What recession?

frankly wrote:

wellfleation wrote:

frankly wrote:

#72 2009-01-27 10:40 pm

Re: What recession?

#73 2009-01-27 10:49 pm

Re: What recession?

wellfleation wrote:

frankly wrote:

wellfleation wrote:

#74 2009-01-27 11:23 pm

Re: What recession?