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Bren wrote:

"Suicide is a pretty hostile act."

-Dr. Laura Schlesinger


What's missing from this thread so far is any appropriate, healthy anger towards those who kill themselves or threaten to.

Killing yourself means you really, really do not give a damn about the people and/or animals who love and need you. It is the ultimate act of self-absorbed, narcissistic spite and/or laziness and/or cowardice.

bullsmurf.

Suicide is a result when someone's thought processes are so different from the average that said someone believes things like they have no reason to live or no one who cares whether they continue to live.

I would expect that very few people commit suicide out of extreme narcissism, spite, or laziness, and when contemplating suicide, I would expect that rather than others' opinions being considered and then discarded as worthless that others' opinions are more often misunderstood if they are even considered.

Bren wrote:

Telling your friends and family that you're going to kill yourself, meanwhile, is a sickeningly manipulative thing to do, especially if you're not going to stick to your word and actually do it. Share that information with a therapist, clergy, or suicide hotline volunteer who's not personally involved in your pathetic little life and will therefore not be unduly burdened by this knowledge.

People who tell others that they are considering suicide are acting in such a way that such suicide might be prevented, and rather than calling them manipulative and adding to reasons they may want to die, their thoughts and reasoning should be considered.

Bren wrote:

Yes, yes, I know that suicidal depression is probably a mental illness, and it should probably be addressed as such, without kinds of moral judgments I'm expressing, but I just really, really hate it when people will take the fact that you're dumb enough to care about them and use that as a weapon against you.

Suicidal depression isn't a mental illness in itself; it's caused by some sort of distress or mental illness.

Bren wrote:

When I become Monarch-for-life of Planet Earth, it will be against the law to make threats of suicide, and a first-time conviction will carry a mandatory death sentence.

What would be the end result of that? More people dying?

That seems counterproductive.

Tallgeese wrote:

Where the smurf are you getting your information from?

The internet ... the most reliable of all sources.

dv wrote:

Tallgeese wrote:

Fried Chicken wrote:

Take her out of therapy.  Putting her into therapy lets her rationalize being different.
Next time she says something about suicide, tell her she's an idiot and mock her... don't act like you don't care, on the contrary, give her a hug or something, and tell her like "Stop worrying, you haven't got it all that bad", in a calm reassuring voice... or try like "Now why would you do that", in a calm reassuring voice.  Don't take it seriously, if it's a cry for attention, it's clearly working.

Anytime anyone thinks about committing suicide, I just don't understand.  I generally think it's b/c people get worked up over things which are actually incredibly insignificant.

Hell, if I were at the point to where I didn't care about anything, I would get some motorcycle, and ride to california with it, where I would go skydiving... just completely change everything... just have some sort of crazy adventure.  It just comes down to stepping back and looking at the big picture, and realizing how stupid you're being.
Really.... if life became so bad that it were worth ending, just live with no more consequence.  Buy a 150 mph motorcycle, and set a record time across the nation... run from the police, or otherwise do some awesome smurf.  I just don't get it.

Where the smurf are you getting your information from?

His imagination.

He's an angry teenager, his dad did himself in.

You have absolutely no idea.
Once someone crosses the line of contemplating suicide, they are showing a degree of selfishness which defies rational human thought.  Anyone who crosses that line is either an idiot, or mentally disturbed.
What I'm trying to say is that if anyone ever contemplates suicide, they need to step back, and discard any emotions that would justify their death... because if they were to really commit suicide, those emotions really wouldn't matter anyway.
That's why I say just drop everything and run.  If people are worried about you?  So what?  They would be hurt much worse if you died... what if they need you?  Does it matter?
From every suicide I have ever observed, this is what should have been somehow undertaken.


Imperial, you're right.  I thought later about what I had posted, and I realized I really didn't know what I was posting about.  But I generally believe that the emotions should be discredited and not embraced.  Most kids that go through therapy don't need it... the only result is that they rationalize feeling more different and weird.

wellfleation wrote:

If anyone remembers, Fried Chicken has had a very personal experience with this sort of tragedy so I take what he says as being as true to him as could be. I also understand the anger part of the people effected by suicide. My best friends brother found their father dead in the cellar of a shot gun blast to the chest. His brother is a ragging alcoholic now (although he may have been going down that road anyway, but I'm sure that didn't help - he was 17 at the time). I was pissed, his father, a smurfing reverend, would do such a thing! But his wife of forever had left him (for another girl to add insult to injury), he was an older, uneducated man, who probably felt totally empty inside at that moment in time - like there was nothing left. (Where's the Lord when you need him?) So I understand Justine's point as well.

This is clearly an issue that provokes the classic stages of grief.

I keep asking myself if my feelings happen in grief or anger... but the more I think about it, the more less I think I'm thinking off of emotion.
The week after my Dad's death, we had a huge family gathering, and family from all over the country came over to southern california where the funeral service was held.  We chose southern california because that's where he was happiest (as we knew him).
During that time, my mom said "If he had known this [gathering of family] were coming, he wouldn't have done it."
He was well within his ability to get on the next plane to Lebanon (where he grew up), and to be around family and support like he hadn't been in years.  I really think he was unable to step back from the situation he was in, and do what he needed.  He had become so consumed in his own situation, he didn't see a way out.
What must have really pushed him was the feeling that we (his family), or anybody did not need or want him.  That idea, is so outrageously far from the truth, that I can only conclude that he couldn't escape a world he had created around him. That's why I say that no matter what situation someone is in, if they decide to kill themselves, they will hurt so many people much more than their being alive ever could.  That is why I believe suicide is selfish.  Just by its nature, it is selfish, even for people in the most dire of circumstances.

dv wrote:

Fried Chicken wrote:

I keep asking myself if my feelings happen in grief or anger... but the more I think about it, the more less I think I'm thinking off of emotion.
The week after my Dad's death, we had a huge family gathering, and family from all over the country came over to southern california where the funeral service was held.  We chose southern california because that's where he was happiest (as we knew him).
During that time, my mom said "If he had known this [gathering of family] were coming, he wouldn't have done it."
He was well within his ability to get on the next plane to Lebanon (where he grew up), and to be around family and support like he hadn't been in years.  I really think he was unable to step back from the situation he was in, and do what he needed.  He had become so consumed in his own situation, he didn't see a way out.
What must have really pushed him was the feeling that we (his family), or anybody did not need or want him.  That idea, is so outrageously far from the truth, that I can only conclude that he couldn't escape a world he had created around him. That's why I say that no matter what situation someone is in, if they decide to kill themselves, they will hurt so many people much more than their being alive ever could.  That is why I believe suicide is selfish.  Just by its nature, it is selfish, even for people in the most dire of circumstances.

That's very touching.

I wish this had been your first post. It's a complete 180 from suggesting 1) we mock the mentally disturbed, 2) therapy is useless, and 3) suicide by cop is preferable to the traditional variety.

What I just posted complements what I posted the first time.  Not the other way around.

Imperial wrote:

...we adopted her out of the state foster care system.

"Thank you for rescueing a child."

-Dr. Laura Schlesinger

Fried Chicken wrote:

dv wrote:

Fried Chicken wrote:

I keep asking myself if my feelings happen in grief or anger... but the more I think about it, the more less I think I'm thinking off of emotion.
The week after my Dad's death, we had a huge family gathering, and family from all over the country came over to southern california where the funeral service was held.  We chose southern california because that's where he was happiest (as we knew him).
During that time, my mom said "If he had known this [gathering of family] were coming, he wouldn't have done it."
He was well within his ability to get on the next plane to Lebanon (where he grew up), and to be around family and support like he hadn't been in years.  I really think he was unable to step back from the situation he was in, and do what he needed.  He had become so consumed in his own situation, he didn't see a way out.
What must have really pushed him was the feeling that we (his family), or anybody did not need or want him.  That idea, is so outrageously far from the truth, that I can only conclude that he couldn't escape a world he had created around him. That's why I say that no matter what situation someone is in, if they decide to kill themselves, they will hurt so many people much more than their being alive ever could.  That is why I believe suicide is selfish.  Just by its nature, it is selfish, even for people in the most dire of circumstances.

That's very touching.

I wish this had been your first post. It's a complete 180 from suggesting 1) we mock the mentally disturbed, 2) therapy is useless, and 3) suicide by cop is preferable to the traditional variety.

What I just posted complements what I posted the first time.  Not the other way around.

Look, I don't want to dump on your grief and anger but whie what you're posting may be valid from the standpoint of the bereaved, it's at best useless and at worst highly dangerous for the emotionally unstable person. Your yelling at the suicidal person out of anger at their "selfishness" is NOT a good idea.

Tallgeese wrote:

Fried Chicken wrote:

dv wrote:

That's very touching.

I wish this had been your first post. It's a complete 180 from suggesting 1) we mock the mentally disturbed, 2) therapy is useless, and 3) suicide by cop is preferable to the traditional variety.

What I just posted complements what I posted the first time.  Not the other way around.

Look, I don't want to dump on your grief and anger but whie what you're posting may be valid from the standpoint of the bereaved, it's at best useless and at worst highly dangerous for the emotionally unstable person. Your yelling at the suicidal person out of anger at their "selfishness" is NOT a good idea.

I don't suggest yelling at suicidal people.
For children, I don't believe they should be shown credibility, and for adults, I think they should be shown they have a green pass to do whatever they need to do, despite the situation.
That doesn't take away from the fact that suicide is incredibly selfish, and I feel it is important that those people who are not suicidal are aware of this fact.

I did not intend for this discussion to get this out of hand. I understand that some people see it as a selfish or cowardly act but unless your are in that person's situation you can never really know what it is like. Just taking off won't solve anything since your problems always end up with you. Last family contact, for me anyway, was 16+ years ago when I was told to leave since, and I am quoting here, "no one gives a damn about you so just go". Yes I have at least a friend but I seem to cause so much more misery than anything else to those around me.

@ Fried Chicken - No harm done.  You didn't know our situation, and I didn't know yours.  Now I understand why your reacted so strongly.

As for suicide in general I just want to offer some opinions, take them for what they are worth.  I work in a field that unfortunately is intimately aquatinted with suicide, and I can see both sides.   I do think that ultimately suicide is a selfish behavior.   But when somebody is truly depressed that's all they can see.  They don't consider anyone else because they are convinced that no one else cares for them.  Right or wrong that's how it is.  I'm not talking about someone that commits a suicidal gesture (someone who makes an attempt that is designed to not work or have someone catch them in the act, or someone who threatens suicide), but someone who suffers from true depression, and I agree with Davic3 that unless you've walked in someone's shoes who suffers from depression, it's hard for people to understand just how you feel.

We handled services a couple of years ago for a man that decided no one cared for him.  He went camping, got drunk, and shot himself in the chest.  The day of his funeral I stood with his sister in law as she told me this guy had called a couple of days prior to his death upset because he felt like no one was in his corner.  More than four hundred people showed at his service.  If he could have seen all those people I wonder if it would have made a difference.

In all the years I've done my job, I've never known of a person committing suicide and slipping away.  The impact on those who care never goes unnoticed and is devastating.

Personally, I think we've all had extremely difficult times at one point or another in our lives and suicide's one of the things that sometimes comes up in the range of responses. I think most people do this.

People who are really serious about suicide for whatever reason generally just do it. This person may confide in someone he knows and trust or give all her stuff away and perhaps someone who's sufficiently sensitive can successfully intervene, but if a person seriously wants to do himself in he generally picks a method known to be highly effective and/or chooses a time when nobody will be around to intervene, and does it.

Some people pick reversible methods or choose circumstances in which it's likely they'll be found before they're actually dead. Often these get lumped in the "cry for help" category. There's a lot of clinical uncertainty here, as some people just botch it because they don't know how much Valium it takes to achieve a fatal overdose. Some people are frightened of sucking on the end of a gun whereas they'll sit in the garage with the engine on because they aren't scared it'll hurt. Some people likely figure if they're found, they'll get help if not, hey. . . nod's as good as a wink to a blind man. . . Motivations vary. Approaches vary. Most generalizations don't work.

It's easy to blame the person who committed suicide, especially so if you have unresolved anger at someone who did. It's easy to heap shame on the person who attempted suicide and failed when clinicians offer anger at the subject as a credible response to that person's unresolved anger.

There are, of course, people who discover that a threat of suicide can be very effective in manipulating parents, spouses, therapists. . . and a good therapist will bring it out for discussion. The modality may differ between clinicians but good ones get these issues out for discussion because generally suicide isn't the issue, manipulation is the issue. The key lies in being able to recognize the difference.

Viktor Frankl, in Mankind's Search For Meaning, talks in the first chapter about how, when people pour their hearts out he often thinks about saying "how horrible, it's a wonder you haven't killed yourself". He wrote about his basest instinct as just surviving to see a loved one again. . . and how this brought about both gallant and contemptibly brutal behavior, and about how this was repeatable but not necessarily prescribable. . . in other words it's individual response or choice.

Imperial wrote:

I've got an 8 year old daughter that has been threatening suicide recently.  I pretty sure she's not serious, but it's chilling to me that at 8 years old she's already reaching that level.
********************************************************************************************
My daughter suffers from Reactive Attachment Disorder (RAD), we adopted her out of the state foster care system.  She was removed (along with her sister) from her mother's care due to the meth lab her mom was running out of their home as well as being so malnourished her hair and teeth were falling out.   Her mom spent her days wasted on drugs and alcohol.  She ate on average once a week when her grandfather would come and get her.  One of her mother's boyfriends was killed execution style in front of her and she was left to keep him alive while her mom hid their drugs.  Another boyfriend died of an overdose in their lab.  She has born almost every type of physical abuse that you can imagine, perhaps even sexual abuse (we don't know of any at the moment, but she exhibits signs of sexual abuse).

I tell you this so you can understand a little of what RAD means.  She cannot (right now) form attachments with adults.  She views every adult through the prism of those that abused her.  No matter our behavior, she can't separate us from those that made her suffer.  She's been with us for two years and been cared for as our own yet she is unable to distinguish us from her abusers.  She's spent the past two years trying to prove to herself that we are just as bad as those that used to beat her.  She tries to provoke us to fail so that she can validate her opinion of adults.  If I turned on her as you suggested, she would say to herself "see they don't really care about me."  We've spent two years trying to build a relationship with her and trying to build her trust in us, and if we mocked her like that, it would blow any chance we would have.  Lying, manipulation, and control are the three things that we are battling.  She is brilliant, wickedly manipulative, and constantly scheming to control everything around her (if we can't help her deal with this, she's either going to end up in prison, or have a brilliant career as a politician), and her threatening suicide is probably an attempt to control us.  So forgive me if I don't take your advice.

Well from what you have said she has been through a lot for a 8 year old. But even for a adult this would a lot to absorb. She sounds like she does need the continuing love and support that you have been giving her. I know you have been taking care of her for 2 years (btw, it's great that you two have taken her in knowing what she has been through) but that kind of trauma, seeing death and abuse since the time she was able to comprehend whats going on I think will take time, lots of love, patients and continued support. I think in time she will come around, but in the back of her mind she will continue to have those thoughts of mistrust of people in general which may hinder her later in life.

But as isaly said "if a person seriously wants to do himself in he generally picks a method known to be highly effective and/or chooses a time when nobody will be around to intervene, and does it." I would keep a eye on her as much as possible if you think it's serious. Good luck with her, I truly hope everything goes well and hopefully she stops thinking of suicide.

Like I said, it's great what you did taking her in. I lot of people won't even take a child with no such emotional trauma.
Hope every thing works out well.

I also say "keep in the fight Davic3", and apologize for replying to Imperial's problems and hijacking your thread.