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#1 2009-04-10 1:53 am

ShnickyShnack
::: title edited due to Satanic influences :::
From: Rockin' out
Registered: 2001-05-25
Posts: 22237

Overwhelming majority of Americans prefer capitalism over socialism

Well ... not an overwhelming majority ...

Only 53% of American adults believe capitalism is better than socialism.
The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey found that 20% disagree and say socialism is better. Twenty-seven percent (27%) are not sure which is better.

REVOLUTION NOW!!!!


Note: please delete this post.

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#2 2009-04-10 7:33 am

Pariah
James Carville Fan..
From: Belly Of The Beast, Oklahoma!
Registered: 2001-05-24
Posts: 18406

Re: Overwhelming majority of Americans prefer capitalism over socialism

Funny thing is I would bet that if you cited examples of common social welfare services you would find support for "socialism" to be MUCH higher.
Sewers, safe water systems, fire and police departments, public schools, public roads and on and on. People like their services and all of those services are forms of socialism.
That's why the free market purists and anarchic libertarians will always remain on the fringes of American political life.
Really the only people I see who really favor pure capitalism are Asperger's cases who have a desperate fixation on simple, consistent systems regardless of how practically unworkable that system might be..


"and it's not surprising that they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."
Barack Obama

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#3 2009-04-10 7:55 am

StaticAge
Fearless Vampire Killer
From: Crouching in your pea patch
Registered: 2002-08-28
Posts: 6935
Website

Re: Overwhelming majority of Americans prefer capitalism over socialism

Pariah wrote:

Funny thing is I would bet that if you cited examples of common social welfare services you would find support for "socialism" to be MUCH higher.
Sewers, safe water systems, fire and police departments, public schools, public roads and on and on. People like their services and all of those services are forms of socialism.

Yep.


"Live with your head in the lion's mouth. I want you to overcome 'em with yeses, undermine 'em with grins, agree 'em to death and destruction, let 'em swoller you till they vomit or bust wide open." -Ralph Ellison

"Overpower, overcome" -Cro-Mags

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#4 2009-04-10 7:57 am

Farmerkev
Official Dementor
Moderator
Registered: 2003-01-03
Posts: 18622

Re: Overwhelming majority of Americans prefer capitalism over socialism

Depends on what is considered socialism.
The most interesting thing about that poll was the age breakdown.


Do your part to combat global warming.
Eat a cow.

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#5 2009-04-10 8:22 am

Pariah
James Carville Fan..
From: Belly Of The Beast, Oklahoma!
Registered: 2001-05-24
Posts: 18406

Re: Overwhelming majority of Americans prefer capitalism over socialism

Farmerkev wrote:

Depends on what is considered socialism.

Well, anymore "socialism" seems to be "any government program a Republican opposes".


"and it's not surprising that they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."
Barack Obama

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#6 2009-04-10 11:33 am

Jdude
Surfing on waterboarders
From: Home is where the war is
Registered: 2003-02-03
Posts: 2702

Re: Overwhelming majority of Americans prefer capitalism over socialism

Pariah wrote:

Funny thing is I would bet that if you cited examples of common social welfare services you would find support for "socialism" to be MUCH higher.
safe water systems, public roads,

Necessary and proper despite city size

Sewers, fire and police departments

Optional, necessity is based on city size and local concerns. A town near me has only a volunteer fire department. There are a few places with no local law or only a Sheriff. Some places just don't need the larger services. A few small cities still run septic tanks, although I think sewers are necessary and proper in the larger cities. That said, one of my large city relatives has a septic tank.

public schools,

Trash, electricity

The common complaint is when the use of these services becomes mandatory. See the fight over homeschooling as an example. Having seen city trash efficiency vs private business efficiency, I am anti city trash as well.
YMMV.


Sometimes before replying to a topic, I think to myself: I am just so original!

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#7 2009-04-10 11:43 am

radarman
Member
Registered: 2005-02-28
Posts: 3618

Re: Overwhelming majority of Americans prefer capitalism over socialism

ShnickyShnack wrote:

Well ... not an overwhelming majority ...

Only 53% of American adults believe capitalism is better than socialism.
The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey found that 20% disagree and say socialism is better. Twenty-seven percent (27%) are not sure which is better.

REVOLUTION NOW!!!!

Define capitalism and socialism. More importantly, ask the poll respondents to define them. I suspect it would be an interesting exercise.

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#8 2009-04-10 12:04 pm

JakeTheTall
Cargo Cultist
From: In Permanent Opposition
Registered: 2003-03-13
Posts: 9612

Re: Overwhelming majority of Americans prefer capitalism over socialism

radarman wrote:

Define capitalism and socialism. More importantly, ask the poll respondents to define them. I suspect it would be an interesting exercise.

Of course.  But I think the "value" of this poll, as it is, is to see if the distorted views of "socialism" in the media right now is gaining traction with "the people."  And to see if politicians need to care about this "omg Obama socialism" nonsense.


Jesus said to the servants, "Fill the jars with water"; so they filled them to the brim.  Then he told them, "Now draw some out and take it to the master of the banquet."  They did so, and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew.

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#9 2009-04-10 12:14 pm

Pariah
James Carville Fan..
From: Belly Of The Beast, Oklahoma!
Registered: 2001-05-24
Posts: 18406

Re: Overwhelming majority of Americans prefer capitalism over socialism

I think the right might be making a mistake linking Obama's policies too much with socialism.
As popular as Obama is seems doing that puts socialism in a pretty favorable light.


"and it's not surprising that they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."
Barack Obama

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#10 2009-04-10 12:29 pm

resedit
Chicken Little
Royal Wombat
From: /dev/null
Registered: 1999-11-01
Posts: 50394
Website

Re: Overwhelming majority of Americans prefer capitalism over socialism

Investors by a 5-to-1 margin choose capitalism. As for those who do not invest, 40% say capitalism is better while 25% prefer socialism.

but the results are rather meaningless -

The question posed by Rasmussen Reports did not define either capitalism or socialism


In her right hand Jenny held the Bible of her mother
Jenny had a pistol in the other
-- Steve Taylor

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#11 2009-04-10 10:28 pm

[MA] Flying_Meat
Member
From: Frisco?
Registered: 2001-03-31
Posts: 8516

Re: Overwhelming majority of Americans prefer capitalism over socialism

CAPITALISM vs. "Hi. How are you?" socialism.

Capitalism makes reading sentences easier, while socialism helps you relate to others better. George Bush was a saint!


...and watch out for the flying meat!

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#12 2009-04-11 12:13 am

resedit
Chicken Little
Royal Wombat
From: /dev/null
Registered: 1999-11-01
Posts: 50394
Website

Re: Overwhelming majority of Americans prefer capitalism over socialism

The issue is that most capitalists will agree that some degree of socialism is necessary AND good.

Furthermore, I don't think there is a "universally best" type of government. Reading about the local Wintu tribe - their form of government probably is not well suited for an industrial society, but I'm actually rather fond of the way they did things before white man came and brought them the measles.


In her right hand Jenny held the Bible of her mother
Jenny had a pistol in the other
-- Steve Taylor

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#13 2009-04-12 7:44 am

isaly
Member
From: well. . . I was there, now I'm
Registered: 2001-09-15
Posts: 5604
Website

Re: Overwhelming majority of Americans prefer capitalism over socialism

Jdude wrote:

Pariah wrote:

Funny thing is I would bet that if you cited examples of common social welfare services you would find support for "socialism" to be MUCH higher.
safe water systems, public roads,

Necessary and proper despite city size

Sewers, fire and police departments

Optional, necessity is based on city size and local concerns. A town near me has only a volunteer fire department. There are a few places with no local law or only a Sheriff. Some places just don't need the larger services. A few small cities still run septic tanks, although I think sewers are necessary and proper in the larger cities. That said, one of my large city relatives has a septic tank.

public schools,

Trash, electricity

The common complaint is when the use of these services becomes mandatory. See the fight over homeschooling as an example. Having seen city trash efficiency vs private business efficiency, I am anti city trash as well.
YMMV.

School is mandatory, not necessarily public school. Home schooling is almost everywhere, especially with the advent of cyber schools.

Okay, school TAX is mandatory. . . I wonder how many people who complain about the school tax burden got a public school education. Perhaps those people should think of it as paying for your own education rather than paying for your neighbor's kids' education. . . and there are voucher programs, no?

Service contractors are paid by tax money. the firm contracted to pick up garbage may or may not have bid on the contract.

Do you know of any private fee for service garbage collection firms? How expensive do you think that would be given the realities of actually doing business for such a firm, advertising, route planning, having to either accept or turn down subscribers in areas where there isn't enough business to make it worth the trip. . .


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____________________        \   <.
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#14 2009-04-12 9:13 am

Farmerkev
Official Dementor
Moderator
Registered: 2003-01-03
Posts: 18622

Re: Overwhelming majority of Americans prefer capitalism over socialism

isaly wrote:

Do you know of any private fee for service garbage collection firms? How expensive do you think that would be given the realities of actually doing business for such a firm, advertising, route planning, having to either accept or turn down subscribers in areas where there isn't enough business to make it worth the trip. . .

That's all we have here.
It costs me $18 a month to get 4, 55 gal barrels emptied.
The big roll off at my brothers bodyshop is like $40/month.
Both places are in the country.


Do your part to combat global warming.
Eat a cow.

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#15 2009-04-12 9:19 am

ScifiterX
婚約中
Moderator
From: NW Palm Bay, Florida
Registered: 2000-02-10
Posts: 18088
Website

Re: Overwhelming majority of Americans prefer capitalism over socialism

Here we have a local gov't. contracted private corporation. We pay but it's via a quarterly addition to our water bill.

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#16 2009-04-12 10:01 am

freecat
Not funny online
From: West of the East Coast
Registered: 1999-04-04
Posts: 5765
Website

Re: Overwhelming majority of Americans prefer capitalism over socialism

isaly wrote:

Do you know of any private fee for service garbage collection firms? How expensive do you think that would be given the realities of actually doing business for such a firm, advertising, route planning, having to either accept or turn down subscribers in areas where there isn't enough business to make it worth the trip. . .

Are you kidding? They're all over the place. Most garbage collection in the U.S. is private and for-profit. The more rural the area, the more likely it is that the private services are your only option. It's generally only a public service in more densely populated areas, mostly cities. You seem to have it backwards.

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#17 2009-04-12 11:29 am

ScifiterX
婚約中
Moderator
From: NW Palm Bay, Florida
Registered: 2000-02-10
Posts: 18088
Website

Re: Overwhelming majority of Americans prefer capitalism over socialism

I suspect even then its more like the setup in my area (local gov't. contracted private corporation).

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#18 2009-04-12 12:24 pm

user
Your plastic pal who's fun to be with
From: I'm not getting you down, am I
Registered: 2001-10-15
Posts: 16030

Re: Overwhelming majority of Americans prefer capitalism over socialism

I had to pay Waste Management to pick up my trash when my house was in the county.

Now that my house has been taken into the city, Waste Management still picks up my trash, only that they are paid by the city out of my taxes.


Aw, he's no fun, he fell right over.

Unless you become as little children, there's no way you will believe this crap.

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#19 2009-04-12 12:33 pm

ScifiterX
婚約中
Moderator
From: NW Palm Bay, Florida
Registered: 2000-02-10
Posts: 18088
Website

Re: Overwhelming majority of Americans prefer capitalism over socialism

Pretty much confirming my statement (at least in your case).

Last edited by ScifiterX (2009-04-12 12:38 pm)

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#20 2009-04-12 6:22 pm

resedit
Chicken Little
Royal Wombat
From: /dev/null
Registered: 1999-11-01
Posts: 50394
Website

Re: Overwhelming majority of Americans prefer capitalism over socialism

user wrote:

I had to pay Waste Management to pick up my trash when my house was in the county.

Hence the prevalence of burn piles out in the country.


In her right hand Jenny held the Bible of her mother
Jenny had a pistol in the other
-- Steve Taylor

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#21 2009-04-12 6:39 pm

ScifiterX
婚約中
Moderator
From: NW Palm Bay, Florida
Registered: 2000-02-10
Posts: 18088
Website

Re: Overwhelming majority of Americans prefer capitalism over socialism

resedit wrote:

user wrote:

I had to pay Waste Management to pick up my trash when my house was in the county.

Hence the prevalence of burn piles out in the country.

Actually the I'd blame lack of no burn enforcement out in the country. As a city dweller, I still have to pay Waste Management. It's just that I pay them through a representative agency (city hall).

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#22 2009-04-12 8:45 pm

resedit
Chicken Little
Royal Wombat
From: /dev/null
Registered: 1999-11-01
Posts: 50394
Website

Re: Overwhelming majority of Americans prefer capitalism over socialism

It isn't lack of no burn policy - they encourage burning out in the country.
Without allowing burn piles, getting rid of brush would be nearly impossible resulting in larger fires.

Yeah, some object to the "green house" gasses produced - but that's ignorance, vast majority of CO2 from a burn pile is carbon that was taken out of the atmosphere recently. Increased CO2 levels are the result of taking old carbon out of the ground and burning it, not carbon already in the cycle.


In her right hand Jenny held the Bible of her mother
Jenny had a pistol in the other
-- Steve Taylor

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#23 2009-04-12 8:58 pm

ScifiterX
婚約中
Moderator
From: NW Palm Bay, Florida
Registered: 2000-02-10
Posts: 18088
Website

Re: Overwhelming majority of Americans prefer capitalism over socialism

I alway heard it was frowned upon (a least here in FL) and assume it was because of lobbying by companies like Waste Management (due to lost profits) combined with concerns people would be too stupid to not burn when the fire hazard became to great.

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#24 2009-04-12 9:00 pm

Tallgeese
Sternly Advising
From: Pool Party
Registered: 2000-10-17
Posts: 34096

Re: Overwhelming majority of Americans prefer capitalism over socialism

resedit wrote:

It isn't lack of no burn policy - they encourage burning out in the country.
Without allowing burn piles, getting rid of brush would be nearly impossible resulting in larger fires.

Yeah, some object to the "green house" gasses produced - but that's ignorance, vast majority of CO2 from a burn pile is carbon that was taken out of the atmosphere recently. Increased CO2 levels are the result of taking old carbon out of the ground and burning it, not carbon already in the cycle.

Particulates are a more real environmental concern than gasses.

...unless you're in redneck land and the burns involve tires and so on.


I still believe in liberalism today as much as I ever did, but, oh, there was a happy time when I believed in liberals.

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#25 2009-04-12 10:32 pm

resedit
Chicken Little
Royal Wombat
From: /dev/null
Registered: 1999-11-01
Posts: 50394
Website

Re: Overwhelming majority of Americans prefer capitalism over socialism

And you get a lot of particulate from a forest fire because burn piles to deal with the undergrowth were not permitted.


In her right hand Jenny held the Bible of her mother
Jenny had a pistol in the other
-- Steve Taylor

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