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I think it is more that the form a Christianity embraced by white evangelicals has morphed from the teachings of Jesus to being more about an angry and bitter resistance to modernity. That modernity, in this case, being represented by the more sophisticated view of ethical behavior held forth in notions at the base of anti-torture treaties.

Modernism often defines its ethical norms without reference to theological sources. Very often it's derived from humanism.

Krauthammer has an interesting article about this-
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co … 08_pf.html

"You do what you have to do." And then take the responsibility.

It's the taking responsibility part that's sorely missing, perhaps criminally missing.  And that's after accepting the asinine standard of the "ticking bomb" scenario.

Daddyo wrote:

Krauthammer has an interesting article about this-
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co … 08_pf.html

That's fine except we are signatories to anti-torture treaties which very spicifically and pointedly reject the rational posited in that article.

Torture is an impermissible evil. Except under two circumstances. The first is the ticking time bomb. An innocent's life is at stake. The bad guy you have captured possesses information that could save this life. He refuses to divulge. In such a case, the choice is easy. Even John McCain, the most admirable and estimable torture opponent, says openly that in such circumstances, "You do what you have to do." And then take the responsibility.

The "ticking time bomb" line of reasoning in particular is the logic that spreads torture far and wide because you can apply it to so many circumstances.

There's a danger to taking euphemisms at face value

resedit wrote:

My personal reason for not having my panties in a wad over the extremely limited use of waterboarding is not religious in origin.

183 times inside one month is "extremely limited"?????

Pariah wrote:

resedit wrote:

My personal reason for not having my panties in a wad over the extremely limited use of waterboarding is not religious in origin.

183 times inside one month is "extremely limited"?????

It was limited to three individuals who without a doubt were involved in planning and coordination of Al Queda operations.

Take waterboarding, for example. I suppose it is accurate to describe the American version of "el submarino" as waterboarding, because it involves water and a board (to which the victim is strapped). Perhaps it is more precise than the "water cure", another euphemism.

But you could also describe waterboarding as "partial drowning". If Bybee had used that description, would he have buttressed his case, or would he have undermined it?

I'm just addressing the unfounded accusation that the support for the practice as it was carried out (whatever you want to call it) was theological in nature,

So SB Thistlethwaite is off her rocker?

was theological in nature, which (at least for me) it is not.

Then don't take it personally.

radarman wrote:

I consider myself to be a fairly devout Christian, and I most certainly do not approve of torture. I can't explain why so many others do, save that it may have something to do with the fact that the US waterboarded primarily "evil, Muslim darkies" - not "good, white Christians".

It has nothing to do with "evil, Muslim darkies" - I do not believe America is a Christian nation (not anymore) so it also has nothing to do with "good Christians of any color".

It has to do with people who were directly involved in planning the massacre of hundreds if not thousands of people, attacks not yet carried, and their unwillingness to disclose details necessary to stop those attacks.

That's what makes them evil, not their skin color or religion, and their refusal to disclose the evil and twisted plans they beyond a shadow of a doubt were involved in is the only reason I support the extreme measures taken to extract that information.

jkahless wrote:

So basically, if they're evil, we can be evil too, but only to them.  Gotcha.

Nope - not what I'm saying at all.