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C. Ives wrote:

dv wrote:

C. Ives wrote:

When people refer to music from the Rococo period as "Classical" I make sure I correct them.

Snideness Fail.

(If you go by the dates on Wikipedia, there was a 25 year overlap, but rococo was used to describe a primarily french post Louis XIV architectural/artistic style. Classical in this case refers to a musical style used between the mid 18th and early 19th century. They are basically unrelated; no musician would refer to a "rococo" musical period; most would be hard pressed to define the term, unless they had taken art history.)

Heh.  Tell that to my music history professor.  And any musician worth their salt knows of rococo music.

Not really. Some people might call it galante but to most of us it's just late baroque.

And my salt is quite salty, thank you.

I can be pretty salty, myself. I may have time to do justice to this at some future point, but a few things can be dealt with now.

Fracai wrote:

Bren wrote:

Morgellon's symptoms are only vague if you're not suffering from them.

So, "I know I'm sick, because I'm sick."  How can something possibly be categorized as a disease if only the people who suffer from it are able to define what it is?  That is the definition of an unreliable and biased sample.

If no one complains of illness, or if any who report symptoms are dustbinned into existing categories, how are emerging diseases ever to emerge, especially if their bodies don't turn to dust before a doc's eyes?

Bren wrote:

I say you have way too much faith in doctors and scientists, two groups of people who are notoriously full of themselves and easily swayed by whatever is the dominant belief system among their colleagues.

My perception differs.  Doctors and scientists are a group of highly educated professionals and experts who place accuracy and empiricism above all else and are swayed when the evidence merits a change.  Fighting ingrained beliefs is an issue, but one that is mostly covered by the scientific method and peer review.

No, it often isn't. Agency and interpersonal politics, various agendas, personal ambitions and more often distort the path of scientific advance. Sir William Osler, probably the most influential diagnostician of the last few centuries, had quite a bit to say on such matters, emphasizing listening to, thoroughly examining & taking a thorough history of the patient. ""Medicine is a science of uncertainty and an art of probability." "The greater the ignorance, the greater the dogmatism." "Advice is sought to confirm a position already taken." I have seen, from too close up, that far too much of modern medicine is getting research grants and other monies for one's institution, and at higher levels, of awards for oneself- not to mention perks from the pharmcos, where the real money is.

I think you put these things on far too high a pedestal. One might recall the early '80s, and the sterling response of the CDC and NIH to a phenomenon dubbed GRIDS. The band played on for some time before enough obviously, measurably sick people turned into a pile of corpsicles, the name was changed to AIDS and the Nobel- excuse me, virus- hunt was on.

There are bound to be bad apples, but the system is designed to weed these out by exposing their deeds.  Peer review, for example, is designed to add weight to a published article by showing that it has been approved by others, but also allows others to tear it apart and point out its failings.

Who was weeded out by the above debacle, again?

CDC had a scandal in the late '90s about CFS that received remarkably little press. A lengthy investigation showed many millions of dollars misappropriated into other programs, more millions unaccounted for. About $12.5M was eventually restored to the CFS program... there's your high-minded CDC.

No one even lost his job. One paper-pusher was reassigned, kicked upstairs.

Don't trust the medical community when they disagree with you, but if they ever start to investigate your claims, they're you're best friend.  Right.

I didn't see that written. It is better, and necessary, to have at least some with you, not against you.

Bren wrote:

It's too little, too late, in my opinion, but such studies do cost millions of dollars, and the money wouldn't be there if the CDC thought the disease wasn't real.

The study is currently in the testing and analysis phase (see here), I'll be interested to see the results.  But, the money is there largely because members of Congress put pressure on the CDC to investigate.

As opposed to..? And the amount is closer to half a million.

If the CDC investigation finds credible evidence I'll likely be convinced.  But the existing reports are far from that.

Credible evidence equals.. likely? I think a bias is showing.

As for the reports of non-organic, extreme heat resistance, etc., as they say: [[citation needed]].  A report from the media that a forensics lab burned a fiber and that it darkened, but survived is barely one step above anecdotal evidence.  Where has this been published?  Have the samples been studied by other labs?  Were the samples collected, tracked, and handled in a document process that rules out contamination?

Bat wrote:

And even a 'true' delusional parasitosis patient would not qualify as psychotic, just neurotic.  But if you're growing fibers in you that withstand 700 degree temps you're likely neither.

True, but we need evidence that those fibers were actually grown inside the subject and that they actually withstand such temperatures.  A NewsWeek article and any number of anecdotes or self reported symptoms provides neither.

Starts have to be made somewhere, often called the beginning. Preliminary evidence undertaken with exclusion in mind is not documented at the peer-review level, but it can yield startling results. As for your assertion that these cases are already covered under 'well-defined' states... citation? Perhaps you can 'prove' psychoanalysis while you're at it. That was 'well-accepted' until fairly recently... paradigms change, tho. Are you suggesting the OSU researchers were lying about finding fibers thru other procedures, or the pathology lab?

"By far the most dangerous foe we have to fight is apathy - indifference from whatever cause, not from lack of knowledge, but from carelessness, from absorption in other pursuits, from a contempt of self-satisfaction."

It's all in your head. G'way.

The research is actually pretty conclusive that people have an amazing ability to delude themselves and even focus on their initial instincts long after they've been proven false.

That's quite true of doctors, who are just as humanly fallible as others- they, often, just use bigger words.

Like I said, the evidence just isn't there.  What is there is marginally interesting, but so far points to known conditions.

Marginally.. {sigh}. And again- citation[s]?

If the CDC study, or some other, comes out and declares that it's nothing new and is best defined as delusional parasitosis or some other non-physical condition, what will your reaction be?  "Guess I was wrong?" or "The CDC is biased and never would have found a positive result."

That the road for those folks is likely longer than might be hoped for. And yes, I have seen bias enough from CDC to not take one or two neg study results as final. They've been wrong before, and will be again.

You want hard data? You want good science? Let me introduce you to Hildegarde:

http://www.staningerreport.com

Bonus: She's kinda hot, in a geek-girl sort of way. That definitely enhances her credibility as a scientist, in my opinion. I'd certainly believe her arguments over anything some fat, old, gray-haired, male scientist had to say.

Fracai STFU. Unless you know someone who has been living with the disease for a decade and have personally experienced the medical community's 'if it isn't in a book, it doesn't exist' mentality.

Linked but it's the whole article

CDC mystery disease study heads toward finish line
Nearing the end of the Morgellons study

Morgellons sufferers and sympathizers protest at the CDC in November 2007. Courtesy of Kelly PickensBy Spencer Freeman

The Atlanta-based Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, partnering with Kaiser Permanente’s Northern California Division of Research, will complete the second phase of its study of the mysterious, and some say nonexistent, Morgellons disease later this month.

The CDC launched the study in January, after Congress received thousands of letters from people claiming to suffer from the disease, characterized by skin lesions, rashes and unexplained fibers found in various parts of the body.

The first stage consisted of identifying all Kaiser Permanente members who may have gone to a physician with symptoms suggestive of Morgellons at any point during the 18 months between July 1, 2006 and Dec. 31, 2007. Researchers then determined whether they met eligibility criteria for the study. In stage two, all eligible members were invited to complete a comprehensive Web-based or telephone survey that examined the duration and severity of a variety of symptoms, reported exposures, other possible precipitating factors and any treatments that may have been found to help.

According to CDC Spokesman David Daigle, in the third, and final, phase of the investigation, those with active symptoms will be invited to come to the Division of Research for an extensive clinical examination, including collection of skin biopsies, blood and urine samples.

     Researchers hope that the investigation will help doctors learn more about Morgellons, such as who may be affected, the symptoms associated with the disease, and the factors that might have contributed to it. Results of the study will be released by early 2009.

Also, later this month, a new show on CBS called “The Doctors” is slated to film a two-part segment on Morgellons disease. The show is expected to air in September.

All of this would seem to be good news for Morgellons sufferers. However, even among those, there are some who are distrustful of the CDC’s study and not optimistic about media coverage.

“I do not count on the CDC, which is one of the reasons why I am working so hard to bring awareness myself,” says Laura Galvez, a victim of Morgellons. Galvez took it upon herself to put together a packet containing information about Morgellons that  Randy Wymore, a researcher at Oklahoma State University, has been compiling for the past five years, and present it to senators and congressmen representing her home state of Utah.

Galvez, 50, has suffered from Morgellons for more than five years. She says the disease forced her to quit her job and exhaust her Social Security benefits. Before contracting Morgellons, Galvez says she was always fit and active.

“Now I just look like a skinny little old lady,” she says.

According to information on its Web site, the CDC “has received an increased number of inquiries regarding an unexplained skin condition which some refer to as ‘Morgellons.’ Persons who suffer from this unexplained skin condition report a range of cutaneous (skin) symptoms including crawling, biting and stinging sensations; granules, threads, fibers, or black speck-like materials on or beneath the skin; and/or skin lesions (e.g., rashes or sores). In addition to skin manifestations, some sufferers also report fatigue, mental confusion, short term memory loss, joint pain, and changes in vision.”

The CDC does not consider Morgellons a reportable disease, and refers to it as “unexplained dermopathy.” Despite that, the Morgellons Research Foundation fully supports the efforts by the CDC and Kaiser Permanente.

“We have been asking for it and are pleased [research] has finally begun,” says Doug Buckner, associate director of the MRF. Buckner hopes that the CDC study will open the door for people with Morgellons to receive proper medial treatment.

The MRF plans to continue financially assisting ongoing efforts by private researchers already dedicated to finding out more about Morgellons disease. 

While there is currently no cure for Morgellons, possible treatments abound. Some Morgellons sufferers, like Wisconsin resident Judith Knilans, have found that using light therapy helps soothe symptoms, even if only temporarily. Knilans, who has had Morgellons for more than 10 years, says it was her doctor, who was running a clinical trial that treated herpes by using lights and dye, who suggested she try light therapy. At that time, he thought her condition was a mutation of herpes, chicken pox and shingles, all of which are members of the same viral family. Knilans says she had excellent results, but her improvement seemed to stall after a month. She began experimenting with different lights and oils, and found a process that worked even better than the treatment her doctor had used.

Karen Wells, a registered nurse in Indiana, has suffered from Morgellons since 2005 and, she says, lost a friend to the disease in 2004.

“Everything is so uncertain, but is does kill,” she insists. “I have seen [Morgellons disease] kill not just my friend, but in the hospital where I work.”

Wells, who works in a neurology unit, says that she sees Morgellons lesions on patients who don’t know they have it. The lesions are sometimes accompanied by cognitive symptoms such as anxiety attacks, panic and nightmares, she says.

“I hate waking up and pulling the covers off me and checking my skin every day to see what new horror is possibly there,” Wells says.

Until recently, attempts to find information about Morgellons on the Web would result in referrals to pages that discussed “delusional parasitosis”—a mental health condition characterized by the belief that one has parasites or bugs crawling on one’s skin.

“My mother passed away thinking I was crazy,” says Wells. “My father won’t talk to me because he feels that my mother could have lived the last days of her life without having to worry about me and this ‘crazy’ disease.”

A few weeks ago, the syndicated “Dr. Phil” program aired an episode spotlighting Morgellons. Knilans was a guest on the show, but the reaction of the Morgellons community was a collective shrug.

“I can almost predict the outcome, especially if this is an older show,” posted one user on the Web site www.morgellons-disease-research.com. “They will look at all of the previously published research in a very logical and methodical way and perhaps mention the CDC study and say ‘We will just have to wait and see what their conclusions are before we decide.’”

According to Knilans, all of the lab tests and biopsies performed on her came back normal, causing doctors to claim that it was all in her head.

“This is a story you will hear again and again for those with this disease,” Knilans writes in an e-mail to The Sunday Paper. “We have to bring awareness that this is real—and it is spreading. We have a huge problem and it is being ignored.”

Buckner agrees: “A doctor told me that if it is not in the medical books or journals, then it does not exist, and that he could not treat what does not exist.” SP

My bolds
Judith Knilans is my mother. So serioulsy STFU its a bit personal.

I think we can all agree on one thing, though:

Hating ticks.

Yeah, but, have I mentioned that fact that Hildegarde is hawt?

Her connection to Jeff Rense, is, perhaps, unfortunate.

I'm really on the fence about Rense.

Heh, heh...

That rhymed.

On the one hand, Rense gets a lot of info out there which would otherwise be suppressed, and I value that.

On the other hand, it's kinda hard not to hear German marching band music in your head when you skim his site and see all the Jewish stars photoshopped into images of demonic, world-domination conspiracy.

But here inside this prison cell
I keep remembering
My parole officer
Was the purtiest thing

And I still know your number by heart
Even though you no longer play a part
Well I don't know if it's love or if I'm smart
But I still know your number by heart

Chagall Guevara

Anyone know how tickets actually attach themselves to people in the first place? They're so slow moving that I can't imagine they tactfully drop from trees or jump up from the ground, yet I consistently get them in wooded areas as well.

EEEEEeeeeee!!! Gross, gross, gross!

Me and my Mom once had a stray cat show up in our backyard who had at least one tick attached to his body. We took him to the vet and got that sorted out. He became a member of our family, and his doctors eventually began referring to him as "The Miracle Pet," because nobody had ever known a cat to live as long as he did.

Nobody mentioned Dengue. Very deadly (mosquito thing)

About a week or two back, I happened to look in these buckets in my backyard, which had, over time, filled up with rain water, and they were teeming with life! Little wiggly things that looked like furry, little tadpoles! So I asked somebody about it, and it turned out they were mosquito larvae!

Needless to say, I dumped the buckets out, and got rid of every other possible source of standing water. I'm glad I caught that when I did.

Bren wrote:

About a week or two back, I happened to look in these buckets in my backyard, which had, over time, filled up with rain water, and they were teeming with life! Little wiggly things that looked like furry, little tadpoles! So I asked somebody about it, and it turned out they were mosquito larvae!

Needless to say, I dumped the buckets out, and got rid of every other possible source of standing water. I'm glad I caught that when I did.

Funny you should mention that.
There is a micro-locality where I have only found brown and tan phase Pacific Treefrogs (P regilla).
Nearby localities, red phase is extremely common if not dominant and green phase is also quite common.

But in this particular area, I've only found brown and tan phase.

So I collected 11 tadpoles from the meadow and am raising them to see what they turned out to be. I took the tadpoles from different parts of the meadow to ensure genetic diversity (IE multiple mothers and multiple fathers).

I also collected a single bullfrog tadpole from another creek system, because I needed a photo voucher to document them there, adults are weary and difficult to photograph and the tadpoles really need a closeup for proper photo voucher, so I had to catch one and bring it home where it is easier to properly photo.

Anyway - 9 of the 11 treefrog tadpoles have transformed, 8 were brown/tan and 1 was green, of the two left, one looks like it will be brown/tan and one looks like it will be green, so only 2/11 being green does seem to indicate a natural selection bias against green at that locality (but not completely eliminated) and against red as well.

Anyway, to feed the tadpoles I've been collected river rocks with algae from Sulfur Creek.
I managed to get some mosquito eggs with the algae so now I have a few mosquito larvae there in the tank.

But the other day I noticed something else - 3 new tadpoles! Tiny little suckers. Some frog eggs must have also been caught with the algae in one of the rocks. They are too small for me to positively ID but they look suspiciously like Western Toad (Bufo boreas) tadpoles. I've found western toads in the general area but never in that particular creek drainage.

I'll know for sure what they are soon enough.

Eegads, let's hope not!

I wouldn't.

Not when I could just as easily get ahold of some fish sticks.