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George Tiller, 67, was shot in the head Sunday as he handed out programs while ushering at Reformation Lutheran Church in Wichita. The gunman then assaulted two other ushers before fleeing.

Then there's this:
http://www.kansas.com/946/story/834444.html

For the 10 a.m. service, Tiller was serving as an usher, one of six ushers listed in the church bulletin. He was handing out bulletins to people going into the sanctuary minutes before being shot.

At 10:03, Tiller was one of six to 12 people in the foyer, outside the sanctuary. His wife, Jeanne, was at the church.

A man armed with a handgun shot Tiller once, according to the preliminary investigation. Three to four people saw the shooting.

Two men confronted the suspect and exchanged words with him, but police would not say what was said.

"They were both threatened, and the gun was pointed at them," Stolz said.

That is why the suspect could face the aggravated assault charges, Stolz said.

Within minutes, paramedics arrived and pronounced Tiller dead at the scene.

Officers arrived and immediately started interviewing witnesses.

There's more there.

The usher stories:
http://www.kansas.com/news/tiller/story/841916.html

Minutes after their conversation, Tiller, a well-known abortion provider, was shot to death in the church's lobby just outside the sanctuary.

Hobart, who is married to an Eagle newsroom employee, didn't see the fatal shot fired. He had stepped inside the sanctuary to check with his daughter, who was scheduled to do a reading in the service.

But Hobart did hear the shot.

"It sounded like a loud clap," Hobart said. "I looked at the choir. I thought maybe they were using a clap board."

When he realized the sound wasn't a musical effect, Hobart went back out into the lobby and stepped into a scene of barely controlled chaos. Some people were rushing to lock exterior doors. A woman stood nearby with a phone to her ear talking to 911 and urging them to hurry.

"I looked down to my left and saw someone lying on the floor," Hobart said.

His first thought was that it was a protester. Because Tiller was a member, the church had been a frequent target of anti-abortion protesters and "they've done things to try to shock us before."

Then, he realized it was no staged protest and that it was Tiller lying on the floor.

"I'm just in shock," he said. "My God, I've never seen anything like that."

Hobart said he rushed back inside the sanctuary to tell his daughter to stay put because he didn't want her coming out and seeing the scene.

He said he was passed by Tiller's wife, Jeanne, who "was calling for her husband."

[bWhen Hobart returned to the lobby,[/b] he saw the church pastor, the Rev. Lowell Michelson, "trying to comfort Mrs. Tiller."

Shortly after that, police arrived and started clearing the crime scene, sending the people who were in the lobby outside, Hobart said.

"People were huddled, crying," he said.

By then, "It seemed very obvious at that time that he had probably passed away," Hobart said.

A group of adults quickly gathered children together in a grassy area outside the church, telling them stories and playing games with them to distract their attention from the police activity, he said.

Well.

Nevermind.

But, then there's Hoepner:

Hobart's fellow usher, Gary Hoepner, witnessed the shooting. Earlier this week, he told the Associated Press and KAKE-TV that he had seen Roeder in the church before and that Roeder had left odd notes in the collection plate, including one reading, "Do you believe in taxes?"

Roeder had been affiliated with the Freemen movement, whose ideology holds that the federal government, its taxes and its currency are illegitimate. He also was a well-known anti-abortion protester in the Kansas City area.

Hoepner said a detective has asked him to refrain from talking about the shooting itself and avoid making further comments about Roeder's conduct in the church leading up to Sunday.

But he did say that the shooting and its aftermath have left him emotionally shocked and exhausted.

"I took off (work) this week and I don't know if I'll be back next week," he said. "It's just worn me out."

Hoepner said he was surprised to see a news report in which anti-abortion leaders confirmed that they had seen Roeder at least once and possibly more at a recent Sedgwick County District Court trial involving Tiller.

Just a cypher, that one.

But, the recap does look like a truly 'inside job'.

But, but, but...if that's the case, the bullet is likely intact.

::nods humbly::

Yes, I see. Like I said, an inside job.

So, the plot thickens. I gotta catch a train...

See 'ya at the trial! When we find out who the other 5 or so witnesses are. And what the story is.

Last edited by daemon (2009-06-08 8:50 pm)

slacker!

JakeTheTall wrote:

I have to ask, why is daemon attempting to rely on others' reporting ?

If you want something done right, do it yourself.  Pick up the phone and start calling people.

An idea that has some merit, especiallly in this case.

CNN circus
http://edition.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/06/09 … pstoryview

Lone crazed gunman goes bigtime.

Roeder met with Rowlands for a half-hour Tuesday, talking on a phone through security glass at the Sedgwick County jail where he is being held. He initially was reluctant to talk, as he said he had been misquoted in another interview. But he gradually opened up, noting that he was giving the interview against the advice of his defense attorney.

Roeder told CNN he is "feeling good," and getting encouraging letters from people around the country, many of whom he does not know. But he complained about conditions in the jail, saying he doesn't like being in solitary confinement and that the jail is "freezing."

Associates have told CNN that Roeder was a regular among the protesters who routinely gathered at Tiller's clinic. Roeder's former roommate, Eddie Ebecher, has told CNN Roeder was "obsessed" with Tiller and in the past had debated whether to kill him.

Relatives said Roeder had suffered from mental illness over the years and had refused treatment at times. He served prison time in Kansas in the late 1990s after being arrested with explosives in his car, but his conviction was overturned on appeal.

But Roeder said Tuesday that reports he has mental illness or schizophrenia are "totally wrong." He acknowledged having a drug problem at one point, but said he has been off drugs since he was 28 years old and has no mental illness.

Rowlands said he attempted to discuss Tiller's death with Roeder, pointing out that there were witnesses to the shooting and its aftermath who claim they saw Roeder leaving the scene and got a license plate from the car. Roeder nodded, Rowlands said, but still would not admit any culpability.

But "He didn't say, 'I didn't do it,' " Rowlands said. "He didn't say, 'Get me out of here, I'm the wrong guy.' "

Federal civil rights prosecutors have launched an investigation into Tiller's slaying, the Justice Department has said. The inquiry will focus on violations of the Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances Act and other applicable federal laws.

Roeder was concerned about the possibility of federal charges, saying his lawyer has warned him that he will be facing them if he doesn't stop talking.

Seems his ex-wife (allegedly) and ex-roommate (allegedly) are spreading the lone crazed gunman gospel.

The media seem to be doing their job well. It won't be necessary to make any calls.

What venue will hear this case? And, what are the Feds up to? Do they have prints from the Knox house?

Last edited by daemon (2009-06-10 6:15 am)

You know, you guys are making it either this guy did it with his SatNiteSpe and left powder, or it was some very specialized event.

Oh. There's new media atwit:
http://twitter.com/#search?q=tiller%20murder%20wichita

Real-time results for tiller murder wichita

pawerks Scott Roeder, Tiller Murder Suspect, Claims 'Victory' In Closing Of Clinic: WICHITA, Kansas (CNN) -- An anti-.. http://tinyurl.com/l3g3f8
about 16 hours ago from twitterfeed

churchnewspaper Moral Reasoning in Light of Wichita: By Albert Mohler The murder of Dr. George Tiller presents America with yet .. http://tinyurl.com/my8org
1 day ago from twitterfeed

AustinMakenzie Congrats Wichita! You're now home to the BTK killer, Dr. Tiller's murder, AND the man arrested for having sex with his neighbor's dog!
1 day ago from TwitterFon

Profilemagazine SPEAK-OUT on the Murder of DR. GEORGE TILLER a courageous hero assassinated while attending Sun. services N Wichita, Kansas on May 31, 2009
1 day ago from web

rhiannonrevolts What life was like for George #Tiller and pro-choicers in Wichita, prior to his murder (thx to Jill at Feministe): http://bit.ly/9ze2O
1 day ago from web

WE_Tweet KANSAS VIEWS ON TILLER'S MURDER: Tiller murder -- The fatal shooting of Wichita abortion doctor George Tiller il.. http://bit.ly/11R8JU
2 days ago from twitterfeed

mattperrybcbc http://squurl.com/bc111/ "The Horrible Lesson of Wichita." Al Mohler deals with the murder of abortionist George Tiller. Worth the read!
2 days ago from TwitBin

kseniadv @jelliott4 You're IN Wichita?!? I'm v curious how things are going after Dr. Tiller's murder. I vote for job. Grad school is expensive.
3 days ago from web

KANSASLIBERTY Roeder won't face death penalty in Tiller murder: Fate of the Wichita late-term abortion business still not cert.. http://tinyurl.com/owag4m
6 days ago from twitterfeed

WoodlandUMC Interfaith Service of Prayer and Reconciliation Friday, June 5, 4pm, First UMC Wichita. In reponse to murder of Dr George Tiller. #Tiller
6 days ago from web

vtuss RT @GregMitch: Editor at Wichita paper was in church during Tiller murder, phoned it in--went up first on Twitter. http://bit.ly/zrbZy
6 days ago from web

That last one is interesting.
Just to stick a toe in the water, see how it is.

Last edited by daemon (2009-06-10 8:24 am)

Steyr AUG wrote:

The simple fact is bullets do crazy things when they hit stuff.

That's the dumbest "smurf happens" I've ever read.

Farmerkev wrote:

Freakout Jackson wrote:

Steyr AUG wrote:

The simple fact is bullets do crazy things when they hit stuff.

That's the dumbest "smurf happens" I've ever read.

No, it was the truth.

So is, "banning guns would save lives".

RatFink wrote:

...

You seem to be somewhat arguing against youself here, making a point, contradicting it shortly after. Anyway, besides not mentioning whether the gelatin photos are temporary (stretch) or permanent wound cavity (they look like permanent), it's also basically moot. At close range, even a non-fragmenting .223 disposes of enough kinetic energy to leave the unfortunate without a back half to his skull. Details get pretty gory, but with brain you have a lot of fluid contained within bone.

Normally. Until... the stretch cavitation will pretty much remove the back part and sides, independent of fragmentation.

If the good doc had been lucky enough, he might've taken it thru one cheek and out the other, albeit likely fragmenting a few teeth. Evidently he wasn't... but yes, stuff happens.

daemon wrote:

So, if becomes a 'sure thing' (witness or authority) that half the skull was gone, does that make a handgun more or less likely to be the weapon?

Or, can anything be concluded at all?

And, are you anticipating powder burns/residue to be present (and, again, a 'sure thing' via report) or not?

If not, how can that be finessed?

You would have to look at all evidence obtained in its appropriate context to make such a determination. Even then some situations will be tougher than others, such as contact wounds producing a smaller exit hole than entrance in the skull.

daemon wrote:

So, if becomes a 'sure thing' (witness or authority) that half the skull was gone, does that make a handgun more or less likely to be the weapon?

Pretty much like Sty says.  Really the only sure bet with taking off a large chunk of your skull is a pointblank shotgun slug or 00 buckshot.

But a heavy hollow point is far more likely to cause that then a light fmj.

Last edited by RatFink (2009-06-11 12:21 am)

Oh, dears- you snuck in ahead while I was writing. And judging by your post, perhaps you shouldn't presume to tell me about ballistics. While my memory and concentration can be poor at times, my familiarity with these matters goes back a long ways, as do my loading/shooting activities.

I'll deal with the rest later when I've time, clear up a bit now.

RatFink wrote:

Bat wrote:

Anyway, besides not mentioning whether the gelatin photos are temporary (stretch) or permanent wound cavity (they look like permanent),

If you see them it's permanent.  You typically need a high speed camera to show temp in ballistics gel.

As I mentioned above, the pic shows both. They had such a camera; it's pointless to study these matters without one. They're not new.

it's also basically moot. At close range, even a non-fragmenting .223 disposes of enough kinetic energy to leave the unfortunate without a back half to his skull. Details get pretty gory, but with brain you have a lot of fluid contained within bone.

That depends heavily on what round is used.

I specified- .223, that is .223 Remington/5.56mm NATO. Hunters consider it a medium range varmint round, but it has the muzzle energy of a .44 Magnum. At close range it would have been striking at around 3,000 feet/second. This our military service cartridge, you know.

But on the most part if a significant part of the bullet does make it to the back of the skull on a not glancing shot it is far more likely to bounce then exit due to it's low mass and increased surface area through deformation.  That is not to say it cannot happen, but I don't think it's as common as you are making it out to be.

Even were the skull still intact and providing full resistance, this is a steel-tipped round, designed to pierce light armor. That tip will not notably deform on passage thru brain tissue.

Normally. Until... the stretch cavitation will pretty much remove the back part and sides, independent of fragmentation.

I think you have been watching too many movies if you think a .223 will cause a mans head to explode.  First of all no force of the bullet goes forward of the permanent cavitation area.

I begin to doubt if you have any real firearms experience. I do, and the majority of it the last few decades is loading and shooting the .44 Mag. I also know physics passably well, thanks. I'm not exactly a goggly-eyed teen.

Look at your own pic. The steel core reaches a depth of over 13" in gelatin. So unless the Dr. had a skull longer than that... rather less, I think, and that much more residual velocity/ force carried by the core tip.
 

Unless the bullet itself exits the skull, the skull will not be breached.  All temp cavitation is is tissue that has dissipated part of the energy of the bullet and through the elastic force of the tissue returned to it's normal state.  There just isn't enough energy in an area of temporary cavitation to break bone... it takes far less force to cause permanent cavitation then it does to break bone.

It's a considerably more complex, dynamic equation than you've set out. But I'm too tired to finish this now, so it'll have to wait. I will remind you that the cranium is not a monolithic solid, but comprised of a number of bones held together by softer tissue.

===

RatFink wrote:

Bat wrote:

You seem to be somewhat arguing against youself here, making a point, contradicting it shortly after.

Let me break it down for you:
- M855 rounds are available but not common.
- The jackets on bullets will fragment
- Ballistics gel shows how the bullet will react within muscle/brain tissue but is a poor indicator of penetration as other tissue/bones will have a tremendous effect on penetration, but less on bullet expansion.
- The skull is very hard and skin is very elastic, both will resist the force of the bullet far more then brain/muscle tissue.
What is contradictory about that?

Bat wrote:

If the good doc had been lucky enough, he might've taken it thru one cheek and out the other, albeit likely fragmenting a few teeth. Evidently he wasn't... but yes, stuff happens.

If that would have happened he would have a good chance of living through it.   Though I am not really sure where you are going with this.

Bat wrote:

As I mentioned above, the pic shows both. They had such a camera; it's pointless to study these matters without one. They're not new.

You are right, I had another image in my mind when I replied to this which was an actual picture of ballistics gel rather then the illustration.

I specified- .223, that is .223 Remington/5.56mm NATO. Hunters consider it a medium range varmint round, but it has the muzzle energy of a .44 Magnum. At close range it would have been striking at around 3,000 feet/second. This our military service cartridge, you know.

Some loadings it is as powerful or more so, some it's less powerful.  I really don't get you point though.  Internally a large, heavy, slower round will behave a whole world of different then a small, light, fast one.  The lighter round will react more violently within a smaller area the the slower one which will

Even were the skull still intact and providing full resistance, this is a steel-tipped round, designed to pierce light armor. That tip will not notably deform on passage thru brain tissue.

You can see the deformation on the ballistics jell illustration and the .  You can sit here and ague that the bullet will not deform until you turn blue, but the fact of the matter is the bullet lost half its weight and is severely misshapen in ballistics gel alone.



But this is all sort of a silly argument.  While available steel cored ammo is really not all that common outside of the military.

Look at your own pic. The steel core reaches a depth of over 13" in gelatin. So unless the Dr. had a skull longer than that... rather less, I think, and that much more residual velocity/ force carried by the core tip.

Yes if we were to scoop the doctors brain out and then shoot it it will probably overpenetrate but at that point I really doubt he would care much about that.  But somehow I really doubt that is what happened.
 

It's a considerably more complex, dynamic equation than you've set out. But I'm too tired to finish this now, so it'll have to wait. I will remind you that the cranium is not a monolithic solid, but comprised of a number of bones held together by softer tissue.

It's really not that complex.

1. The plates of the skull of a human will fuse (by Sharpey's fibres) at about 24 months, while the bonds are not as strong as non fused bone and do allow some give they still take a great deal of force to break.
2. The skin around the skull will act against any force on a whole plate with a considerable amount of force.