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ShnickyShnack wrote:

Farmerkev wrote:

Chickenhawk wrote:

Yes, but he was not aborting 26 week old healthy fetuses that would not have caused considerable impairment of the mother's bodily functions (as is allowed by Kansas law). He aborted fetuses that either 1) had a serious or fatal defect that developed late in pregnancy, or 2) healthy fetuses which would have caused "substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function" as allowed by Kansas law with agreement of a second impartial physician.

He was tried, and acquitted earlier this year for consulting a second physician who was not completely impartial. Since he was acquitted, that means that he was operating within the law. I seriously doubt that a 'good case' could be made to justify the slaying of a private citizen operating within the bounds of the law.

Only 3 MD's in the US did what he would do.
If it was so necessary there would be more.

Or maybe people just don't like getting shot.

Not to be crass, but this is an excellent example of how the death penalty does, in fact, work. Its the same reason you don't find a lot of living snitches in the inner city; and apparently why a lot of other OB's punted such cases to Tiller.

radarman wrote:

Not to be crass, but this is an excellent example of how the death penalty does, in fact, work.

No, it's not.

For it to be so, Tiller would've had to go thru the judicial system- not have one deranged individual act as "I, the judge, jury & executioner."

Extrapolating further is a logical fallacy- e.g., you might fear death, but u r not a criminal.

As long as we're moving into "theory"...

I think the confusing info regarding Roeder's true residence (which I've outlined here) can be expalined in this link (which I found thru google today...yesterday had I had ISP/connection issues):
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/ … ers-Murder

Plus, I still don't know where Tiller's wound(s) were/are. And no autopsy that I've seen mentioned.

Amy Goodman's show on DemocracyNow yesterday excerpted:

Does any of this surprise you? And what do you mean by the "beware" of "the ‘lone nut’ theory"?

FREDERICK CLARKSON: Well, no, it doesn’t surprise me at all. It’s typical in the major crimes that I’ve looked into around anti-abortion violence over the years, where people case out locations. And they also increase their level of activism, including the degrees of their crimes. So, gluing a lock and doing things repeatedly over a period of time is not only a violation of the FACE law, it’s an indication of an escalation of activity around violent anti—and potentially violent anti-abortion activists.

But the other part of it is that we have a tendency in society, where heinous crimes are committed, to think of somebody as crazy and acting alone. With the history of anti-abortion violence and major crimes is that typically people are neither nuts or alone. They’re actually pretty well-planned crimes. You have to do a great deal of intelligence gathering, casing out a place, knowing locations. In the case of Dr. Tiller, he was known for wearing a bulletproof vest, for example, as most abortion providers do because of the constant threat and danger to their lives. So a headshot would be key to doing a death blow to any abortion provider, if you were serious about trying to get him.

AMY GOODMAN: But this issue of the "lone nut" theory that you’re saying beware of, talk more about this.

FREDERICK CLARKSON: Well, it’s easy to look at people as isolated individuals, when they’re usually operating in a context. It’s easy for people, for example, to have lots of degrees of assistance. For example, Shelly Shannon, who did the attempted assassination of Dr. Tiller in 1993, one of the precipitary factors to the FACE law, was on a crime spree all over the West for months and years doing arsons and butyric acid attacks. That’s the chemical attack that creates a powerful, unbelievable stench that just clears out buildings. And she would have—she had a network of safe houses, including one where a couple provided gas cans. And it was kind of a "don’t ask, don’t tell" situation, where the less people know about what you’re doing, the better it is for everyone. And there’s an extensive network of support for itinerant clinic protesters, some of whom turn out to be violent criminals in this way. So, history has shown that there are always these concentric circles of support, some witting and some unwitting, of people who participate in these kinds of crimes.

...

A little later, another guest:

CHIP BERLET: Well, it’s essentially the same thing that Fred’s been saying. It has to do with the fact that there is this social movement, this overlapping network of social movements, that the anti-abortion activists in the 1990s began to merge into—and in both directions, merge into—the patriot and armed militia movement, move into the tax protest movement, and move into the white supremacist movement. And it became a very broad network of people with a wide range of ideas.

But a social movement provides for institutional support, in a sense. So, as Fred says, there are safe houses. We know that Roeder was involved in the sovereign citizen movement, like the Freemen. It’s not clear at all that he was a Freeman. But the term here is being used to talk about this package of views. They’re not really anti-government; they’re anti-equality, they’re anti-civil rights. It’s a movement that has a white supremacist understanding of the Constitution as amended.
..

It would seem likely a conspiracy of some sort.

Last edited by daemon (2009-06-04 7:02 am)

bratboy wrote:

Bat wrote:

No, it's not.

For it to be so, Tiller would've had to go thru the judicial system- not have one deranged individual act as "I, the judge, jury & executioner."

Extrapolating further is a logical fallacy- e.g., you might fear death, but u r not a criminal.

Thank you, that comment made no sense whatsoever.  (And yes, plenty of people do still "snitch" in the "inner city.")

The death penalty doesn't have to be judicial to work. While I was living near Baltimore, there was a woman who complained to the cops about the drug dealers on her block. The drug dealers firebombed her house. She survived, but insisted on moving back in when it was repaired, and continued to hassle the drug dealers - so they firebombed her house a second time. The second time, her entire family was killed.

From what I understand, no one on that block has bothered the drug dealers - including the cops.

Thus, the death penalty (from the drug dealers) has effectively curbed the activities in the neighborhood. Sure, you can call it an open threat, but really; what is any punishment but a threat to do X if you do (or don't do) Y?

Look, don't get me wrong, late-term abortions are definitely horrifying. I remember even Dr. Morgentaler, Canada's high-profile abortion rights activist, condemning it because he says the fetus has become a baby by that point.

But I also think it's something of a red herring, because it's relatively rare.

It's a good model of the criminal mindset at work in this case though.

Please don't use Bobby Jindal as your avatar. I'll lose respect for you.

Much better but I'm spoken for.

Bristol.

Last edited by daemon (2009-06-04 3:07 pm)

Really? It does nothing for me. Among other reasons, they're too young and the one on the left doesn't have nearly enough meat on her bones.

I think absinthence is the best choice, and I'm not spoken for.

At least it's the best goer (nudge, nudge).

Gurlugon wrote:

I envision this fizzling out by Thursday and no serious questions about how anti-abortion groups conduct themselves being raised in the media.

And my intuition suggests there will also be strife in the Middle East. Your lucky numbers are 5, 14, 27, 33, and 40.

That bold part was prescient enough. If you end it with"...about how the assassination happened." New details remain unreported today.

I'll take the numbers under advisement.

Last edited by daemon (2009-06-04 3:47 pm)

How about that?

Roeder, 51, was given a public defender after filling out a court affidavit saying he couldn't afford to hire an attorney. He listed his occupation as working for an airport delivery service making $1,100 a month.

Mortgage payments on that house? Car/gas? Various and sundry everyday expenses? Food Stamps?

The DA doesn't go for the DP, so Kansas Bill of Rights means bail.

Sedgwick County District Judge Warren Wilbert on Thursday set a $5 million bond for Scott Roeder, who remains in jail on first-degree murder charges in the shooting of George Tiller.

Wilbert set the bond after Roeder's public defender, Steve Osburn, filed a motion pointing out that Kansas law prevented defendants charged in non-capital cases from being held without bond.

During his initial court hearing on Tuesday, Roeder had been ordered held without bond.

Roeder's charge could bring life in prison if he's convicted, but he would not face the death penalty.

Chief Deputy District Attorney Kim Parker didn't dispute that bond needed to be set and requested $10 million.

A hearing had originally been set for this morning, but with no objections from either side, Wilbert decided to set bond Thursday.

For more than a century, Kansas law has dictated that nearly all criminal defendants should get bail.

Section 9 of the Kansas Bill of Rights in the state constitution says: "All persons shall be bailable by sufficient sureties except for capital offenses."

Defense Fund up yet?

HOW ABOUT A BOOK DEAL?!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_Cold_Blood

Last edited by daemon (2009-06-05 5:38 am)