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Farmerkev wrote:

daemon wrote:

Farmerkev wrote:

Unlike a CSI episode, in real life it can takes months or years of investigations before anything happens.

True.

However, the point stands. No gun today. And no bullet.  Doesn't seem to be high priority, either.

I'll be interested to see how the Feds mash the grapes.

You don't really have any idea what they are and aren't doing, only what some blogs and reporters have written.

2009-06-03 7:32 am
Farmerkev
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Re: Tiller murder thread
I would say the police say he acted alone because of eye witness statements.
He was killed in public. A few dozen people saying this guy walked up, shot the doc then ran out to his car and drove away.

Yes. Of course.
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Pariah, it is consistently shoddy reporting. Within both this story (if it weren't for a marriage between an usher and a newsroom hand, the witness info from yesterday would still be a mystery. The headshot info was contemporaneous to the witnesses 'going public', fwiw.) And within the 'high profiel' coverage and
investiagations. You'd think some venues would have some worthwhile workers, here and there.

The same for the law enforcement establishment.

There's a vid of the initial police briefing, where he's delicately tiptoeing (but HINTING) the vic's ID. Later, he says "shots". Later, he's pressed on how many. He won't go there.

Yet, for days the universal lede had 'a single shot'. Now, the more objective 'was shot to death' or 'gunned down' is in use. fwiw. I've quote numerous use throughout this thread.

Just after the witness story broke (local intrepid reporting) the 'single shot to the head' (which I've also liberally quoted) became the dominant description. It took a week for that detail to get clear? And, the one named eyewitness is too shaken to go to work (I bet he never goes back. Where he is, anyway.) and under orders not to go into any detail.

His name is on the judge's 'preventive order' as far as Roeder's court appearance goes. Because he's one of the alleged assault victims? He supposedly tried to keep 'Roeder' from fleeing.

btw: the mug shot that I bet everyone is using is undated according to the Yahoo slideshow. Released to news orgs on June 2, I think it says. File photo. Not necessarily from the May 31 arrest.

I also wondered early on whether 'this really is the droid we're searching for'. I think the car tie is tenuous. No ID on record says Roeder is the same guy who drove off in the powder blue ford which was stopped 3 hours and 170 miles later.

Roeder could have easily gotten in at some point along the way. And the first driver...? And the gun?

Last edited by daemon (2009-06-07 11:33 am)

There's a gunshot to the head. Where's the bullet?

Hoepner's not the only one with tight lips...

When asked to discuss the Tiller shooting, Roeder, 51, of Kansas City, Mo., refused to comment, saying he would talk about that later.

His jailhouse call.

There's no defense fund, because he's supposed to lose. Quickly, if possible. Then, there might be volunteer help in the appeal. Wonder who filed the 4th Amendment brief back int the '90's. That's who should be on this case, wouldn't you think?

So, does he need another lawyer now that the Feds are in on it?

Last edited by daemon (2009-06-07 2:25 pm)

Even better. The car search found this in the trunk:




from the armsware chitchat where I got the search for this graphic:

Bat wrote:

The latter, tho I wouldn't swear to it. And altho technically true, most rifles characterized as military wouldn't likely be called '.22' in the same sentence.
The M-16/AR-15 shoots a 22 caliber bullet.  Typically they differentiate them from the far less powerful 22LR by calling it a .223 (or 5.56x45mm NATO) but t the bullets are the same diameter, 5.7mm.
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#78 2009-06-03 8:51 am
sturner
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Re: Tiller murder thread
Bat wrote:

The latter, tho I wouldn't swear to it. And altho technically true, most rifles characterized as military wouldn't likely be called '.22' in the same sentence.
Technically, the 5.56mm Nato round is a .22 caliber round. That often confuses people in the media. Let's remember that it's our very same media that doesn't now the difference between a squad and a squadron, and will refer to a fully automatic assualt pistol as a machine gun.

The chat almost assumes a .22 shot. So, I'm going with that. A .22 will be the found round. If one ever does appear.

I do believe some version of this rifle is what Bond has crooked in his arm as the last second of Casino Royale.

Last edited by daemon (2009-06-07 2:57 pm)

I never wear a took.

Your idea is easily solved with:

AP reporter writes:
Police say they are unable to recover the bullet.

As long as we're into comedy (and I've read Ulysses. All of it. The Irish version. For fun.) howzabout some rockrib middle American vintage investigation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sShMA85pv8M

The timeline is irrelevant. The act and the players themselves are at question.

Last edited by daemon (2009-06-08 5:15 am)

While I don't know what round was used, I think it's pretty important to note that the .223 rounds being very high powered, tend to tumble and fragment within the body.  If that was the round that was used it is likely that the bullet is nothing more then splinters and it's tip.  It would also explain why there wasn't an autopsy, he would have been x-rayed before the autopsy decision would be made, if the bullet splintered itself the pathologist may had determined there was little need for one.

Here is an image showing 3 types of .223 rounds compared to 2 handgun rounds:

Last edited by RatFink (2009-06-07 8:50 pm)

RatFink wrote:

While I don't know what round was used, I think it's pretty important to note that the .223 rounds being very high powered, tend to tumble and fragment within the body.  If that was the round that was used it is likely that the bullet is nothing more then splinters and it's tip.  It would also explain why there wasn't an autopsy, he would have been x-rayed before the autopsy decision would be made, if the bullet splintered itself the pathologist may had determined there was little need for one.

Here is an image showing 3 types of .223 rounds compared to 2 handgun rounds:
http://www.jesseshunting.com/photopost/ … rofile.jpg

Wow. Alright, so just to my eye, the two longer thinner lines are the handgun trackings, no?

If so, the lack of a retrievable bullet indicates the high powered weapon. Without stipling, that means distance.

Last edited by daemon (2009-06-07 9:01 pm)

Have you used the streetview of the church grounds? Would it be a useful weapon from some random tree?

Or, would it have to be used say within the confines of the foyer area?
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Also, there's been no word at all on the bullet. They could say: The bullet disintegrated on impact and cannot be retrieved. Plus, the X-Ray would have to stand for an autopsy.

Last edited by daemon (2009-06-07 9:31 pm)

daemon wrote:

Have you used the streetview of the church grounds? Would it be a useful weapon from some random tree?

Or, would it have to be used say within the confines of the foyer area?
----
Also, there's been no word at all on the bullet. They could say: The bullet disintegrated on impact and cannot be retrieved. Plus, the X-Ray would have to stand for an autopsy.

I tried to look at the link in this thread but for whatever reason it didn't bring me to a particular location.  But lets put it this way... and I am not a expert in terminal ballistics but... I would say anywhere between 0-150 yards could end in a highly fragmented round in the head.  If you hot-load and shoot a hollow point you may be able to push it to 200.  A lot of it depends on the rifle and barrel length.

I really can't say why they wouldn't say that if it's the case but I would suspect the prosecution will play it's cards close to it's chest until the trial starts.

RatFink wrote:

daemon wrote:

Have you used the streetview of the church grounds? Would it be a useful weapon from some random tree?

Or, would it have to be used say within the confines of the foyer area?
----
Also, there's been no word at all on the bullet. They could say: The bullet disintegrated on impact and cannot be retrieved. Plus, the X-Ray would have to stand for an autopsy.

I tried to look at the link in this thread but for whatever reason it didn't bring me to a particular location.  But lets put it this way... and I am not a expert in terminal ballistics but... I would say anywhere between 0-150 yards could end in a highly fragmented round in the head.  If you hot-load and shoot a hollow point you may be able to push it to 200.  A lot of it depends on the rifle and barrel length.

I really can't say why they wouldn't say that if it's the case but I would suspect the prosecution will play it's cards close to it's chest until the trial starts.

go to google maps. enter 'tiller lutheran church wichita kansas' and bore down till you can access a thumbnail 'street view'. It works kinda like QTVR, and you can pan around. The shots have a stunning bright sun over the horizon of the building.

It looks like plenty of opportunity within your scenario range. 50-100 yards by my eye.

Last edited by daemon (2009-06-08 5:19 am)

Thanks. Although, I don't get the need for the low position.

I think the open area with the archlike entries is where he was hit. (foyer/porch) The 'other' usher seems to have ducked inside at the critical moment. Lucky for him, huh?

What about from a powder blue ford in the parking lot? Which then pulls away with the shooter at the wheel and 'Roeder' at shotgun. (The car has never been 'placed' on the board, afaik.)

Just because
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/index.ss … woman.html

See, it's sorta just out there about exactly where it happened. On a nice spring morning, I'd imagine the ushers and greeters might be outside the door. The other usher's account sounds like he went through a door in; then went back out and saw the carnage. The body could have been viewed more easily by anyone if it happened in a 'vestibule' area, just inside the door. (Assuming that my long term recall of any given church holds up.)

Also, I think the outside is most likely to have limited the eyewitness count.