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btw - as far as them not pursuing anything close to that, they have a video of the guy largely responsible for the current plan saying the opposite - that it's not a "Trojan Horse" - it's right there, they want to go single payer but are easing into it to not alarm too many people.

Don't believe what the white house is telling you, it's a pack of lies - and agree with single payer or not, that should alarm you.

resedit wrote:

btw - as far as them not pursuing anything close to that, they have a video of the guy largely responsible for the current plan saying the opposite - that it's not a "Trojan Horse" - it's right there, they want to go single payer but are easing into it to not alarm too many people.

Again, you haven't been forthcoming with these videos--but who cares if some are ultimately seeking a single payer plan?

The proposed plan is not single payer.  It cannot magically become single payer.  If Congress wants to enact single payer at some later time, we will have to have this same discussion over again, there will have to be new legislation, and there will have to be another vote.  Are you complaining that some would seek a more politically-viable plan even when they believe something greater is needed?

Don't believe what the white house is telling you, it's a pack of lies - and agree with single payer or not, that should alarm you.

Who is lying, about what?  The White House has repeatedly insisted that THIS PLAN is not a single payer plan.  That THIS PLAN does not contain secret language to enact a single payer system.  Of course that's the truth. 

If conservative politicians are legitimately concerned that this plan will lead to single payer later, perhaps it's because they're afraid the program's success would make the public more amenable to single payer.  And perhaps it might.  I don't believe Obama promised that this plan wouldn't convince anyone that single payer is the better option!

Last edited by bratboy (2009-08-05 11:07 pm)

Last night, Rep. Steve Kagen (D-WI) and Rep. Steve Driehaus (D-OH) were apparently the latest victims of this strategy. Kagen, whose town hall was targeted by the Wisconsin chapter of Americans for Prosperity, was “repeatedly disrupted” by “incomprehensible” shrieks and shouts from angry conservatives.

Driehaus politely allowed an already angry crowd of tea party people into his town hall, and greeted them by saying, “I know that there are those with the tea party group and I welcome you and I welcome them to my office.” Despite his offer for constructive dialogue, within minutes, members of the right-wing crowd began booing and hissing with repeated howls of “move to Europe!”

Greg Sargent reports that Rick Scott, the disgraced hospital executive bankrolling the anti-health reform group Conservatives for Patients’ Rights, is now joining the effort to disrupt health care town halls. The for-profit health industry is contributing a great deal of resources to pressure lawmakers against reform. Last weekend, the health insurance lobby announced that they will be sending staff to “confront” lawmakers at town halls and will be transitioning to negative ads.

Link.

I don't see this working out over time.  Already today Michael Steele was distancing the RNC from the mobs.

JakeTheTall wrote:

For being aimless lazy slackers in the 60s, the hippies have some serious staying power, apparently.

When the 60s was over and their vision of radical change to American culture was dead, many of them got themselves decent jobs.
It also should be pointed out that a large number of hippies were college students, and not all were dumb enough to drop out.

I may be off a few years. Point is, it occurred.
And a lot of them moved to Napa / Sonoma area.
I don't blame them - it's gorgeous there. The beauty of the area brings out a bit of eco-hippie in just about everyone.

It amazing that someone can vehemently call another a "liar" but then be unable to formulate exactly what it is they've supposed "lied" about.

Oh well, far be from me to point out the gaping holes in another poster's argument.  That wouldn't be nice.

resedit wrote:

Don't believe what the white house is telling you, it's a pack of lies - and agree with single payer or not, that should alarm you.

Please Res, tell us how he is "lying" to us.

Please.

Showing a several-years old video clip of him saying he'd favor single payer has nothing to do with the pending legislation.

A president simply doesn't have the kind of power to just do some sort od "switcheroo" and you know it.

At least I hope you know it. Else you are as gullible as the birthers.

iSeamas wrote:

resedit wrote:

Don't believe what the white house is telling you, it's a pack of lies - and agree with single payer or not, that should alarm you.

Please Res, tell us how he is "lying" to us.

Please.

He specifically states that those who like their current health care won't have to change it.

Even on face value, that's not true - because we all are going to be taxed to pay for Obama Care whether we use it or not, so only the wealthy will get to keep their existing health care.

Furthermore, he is on tape stating that he wants single payer but that it will have to be done in steps, and the guy largely responsible for the current bill is on record stating the goal is single payer but it has to be done slowly to not alarm too many people.

So you have a statement from Obama that doesn't make sense at face value, and a plan from Obama that fits into his previous statement perfectly but is in conflict with his statement.

He is trying to intentionally mis-lead the public. I'm sure he feels justified and thinks it is the right thing to do.
Bush felt justified in going into Iraq and thought it was the right thing to do.

Put a frog in hot water and it jumps out.
Put it in cool water and slowly raise the temperature and sits there and cooks.
Obama clearly thinks of us as frogs to be cooked, and not as his boss.

resedit wrote:

He specifically states that those who like their current health care won't have to change it.

Even on face value, that's not true - because we all are going to be taxed to pay for Obama Care whether we use it or not, so only the wealthy will get to keep their existing health care.

What do you mean?  I'm not wealthy, why won't I be able to keep my existing plan?

Furthermore, he is on tape stating that he wants single payer but that it will have to be done in steps, and the guy largely responsible for the current bill is on record stating the goal is single payer but it has to be done slowly to not alarm too many people.

Where?  When?

So you have a statement from Obama that doesn't make sense at face value, and a plan from Obama that fits into his previous statement perfectly but is in conflict with his statement.

He is trying to intentionally mis-lead the public. I'm sure he feels justified and thinks it is the right thing to do.
Bush felt justified in going into Iraq and thought it was the right thing to do.

How is he misleading?  What he believes is the right plan and what he knows is politically-viable may be two different things.  That's not lying.  Any adoption of a single payer system (which will most certainly not happen while Obama is president) will require another national debate, another bill, and another vote.  Period.

Put a frog in hot water and it jumps out.
Put it in cool water and slowly raise the temperature and sits there and cooks.
Obama clearly thinks of us as frogs to be cooked, and not as his boss.

Would you suggest that government only adopt policies that are certain NOT to shift public opinion on other potential policies?

How silly--to suggest that, if the current plan convinces the public that single payer is needed down the line, then the public is somehow being conned.

resedit wrote:

Furthermore, he is on tape stating that he wants single payer but that it will have to be done in steps, and the guy largely responsible for the current bill is on record stating the goal is single payer but it has to be done slowly to not alarm too many people.

Obama made a lot of promises running up to his election, so I am not really sure how important a clip of him saying that early in the campaign is. Also, the other guy is Jacob Hacker and he advised and criticized both Obama's and Hillary's plans during the campaign. I would not say he was "largely responsible," he is a health care expert who came up with a proposal that was similar to both Obama's and Hillary's plans, Obama's big difference was it was not mandated coverage. That clip looks like he is describing his own proposal. There is a big difference between having your own idea and commenting on someone's similar idea, and writing somebody elses idea for them or being on their team. You know how I feel about Obama, but, just saying.

Last edited by StaticAge (2009-08-06 10:17 am)

Some teabaggers have started getting physical:

Bitter divisions over reforming America's health care system exploded Thursday night in Tampa amid cat calls, jeering and shoving at a town hall meeting.

"Tyranny! Tyranny! Tyranny!" dozens of people shouted as U.S. Rep. Kathy Castor struggled to talk about health insurance reforms under consideration in Washington, D.C.

"There is more consensus than there is disagreement when you get right down to it,'' Castor offered, immediately drowned out by groans and boos.

She pressed on, mostly unheard among the screams from the audience of more than 200.

The spectacle at the Children's Board in Ybor City sounded more like a wrestling cage match than a panel discussion on national policy, and it was just the latest example of a health care meeting disrupted by livid protesters. Similar scenes are likely to be repeated across the country as lawmakers head back to their home districts for the summer recess.

Thursday's forum/near riot was sponsored by state Rep. Betty Reed, D-Tampa, and the Service Employees International Union, who apparently had hoped to hold something of a pep rally for President Obama's health care reform proposal.

Instead, hundreds of vocal critics turned out, many of them saying they had been spurred on through the Tampa 912 activist group promoted by conservative radio and television personality Glenn Beck. Others had received e-mails from the Hillsborough Republican party that urged people to speak out against the plan and offered talking points to challenge supporters.

"The insurance industry and … Republican activists are manufacturing a lot of these phony protests,'' said Castor, who has been closely involved in the health care debate and said she won't support any bill lacking a government-run insurance option.

She left before the forum ending, which drew more boos. State Rep. Reed said she encouraged Castor to leave because nobody could hear her any way.

Protesters said there was nothing phony about their strong showing, just a bubbling of grass roots anger.

"It's the backlash to the arrogance of our government that you're seeing here,'' said Brad Grabill of Temple Terrace.

smurfing ridiculous. 

Link.

I seem to recall these same good people, some years back, on a different subject, silencing others who spoke out against a president's policy, calling them names like traitor and such.

Should that tactic be applied to them?