Forums | MacLife

So is he buying missiles to aim at the US or to aim at the next round of protests against him?

MysticCow wrote:

So is he buying missiles to aim at the US or to aim at the next round of protests against him?

He can aim them all he wants.  With a range of 186 miles, they ain't gonna do him any good.

Not that that will stop the hand wringing and panic in the media.

Pithecanthropus wrote:

Oh, good! Buying missiles improves any situation!

Newsweek just had an article "Why Obama needs to learn to love the bomb".
It's a new look at the reality of nuclear weapons and how they actually have promoted peace and restraint.
(different than conventional I realize but a similar idea)

but is it legal?

resedit wrote:

MysticCow wrote:

So is he buying missiles to aim at the US or to aim at the next round of protests against him?

He's buying missiles probably to aim at Colombian bases in hopes of convincing them to scrap their deal with us.

Not that he's worried in the slightest that ours or their plan has a snowball's chance in hell. Historically speaking.

"It's not whether or not our plan works that concerns him, I don't think he gives a rats ass one way or the other if Columbia drug lords succeed or not."

Missed. The Columbian drug lords WILL certainly suffer no ill effects no matter how many of our troops go down there.

The American public will make sure of that. WE are the reason they exist- remember?

And I believe that the reason for Chavez recent buying spree is more out of fear that we, America, will push our way in and prop up another leader that wil be more sympathetic to OUR needs. Regarless, the day we show up in Columbia will be a day after any real Cartel leader jumps to Peru or Bolivia.

sturner wrote:

Bat wrote:

Don't forget the impending 100 MBT deal. Compared to much of what's in service in neighboring countries, even T-72s are formidable, and T-90s, stripped down export models or no, are modern AFVs roughly in the Abrams class.

The T-72 can be just as dangerous to the crew as to any opponent. The auto-loader had a nasty habit of removing the loaders arm.

Soviet designed tanks are small, therefore are harder to target. However, they have a limited reverse slope capability, since they have a more limited angle of depression for their main gun. Meaning they can't go hulldown behind as many slopes as can American or British tanks. Even the M60A3 could handily defeat a T-72. It would also give the t-90 a good run. There is a limited amount of good tank country in Columbia.

Just like the Ardennes!

sturner wrote:

Bat wrote:

Don't forget the impending 100 MBT deal. Compared to much of what's in service in neighboring countries, even T-72s are formidable, and T-90s, stripped down export models or no, are modern AFVs roughly in the Abrams class.

The T-72 can be just as dangerous to the crew as to any opponent. The auto-loader had a nasty habit of removing the loaders arm.

Even Venezuelans can be taught that.

Soviet designed tanks are small, therefore are harder to target. However, they have a limited reverse slope capability, since they have a more limited angle of depression for their main gun. Meaning they can't go hulldown behind as many slopes as can American or British tanks.

Oh, do not get me started on armor... you want a whole lecture on Tankograd, the WWII relocation of tank factories behind the Urals to put them out of range of German bombers, the failure of the He-111 to redress that, the subsequent influence (due the expense of relocation) on every Russian tank design since due to the narrowness of train tunnels thru the Urals etc. etc.?

Moreover one can often reverse to a nearby opposing slope and elevate to clear a hilltop in overwatch.

Even the M60A3 could handily defeat a T-72. It would also give the t-90 a good run. There is a limited amount of good tank country in Columbia.

You're prepared to argue the tactical savvy of the likely opponent crews (e.g. Brazilians)? I doubt also these tanks will see much action inside Venezuela, and likewise the long range accuracy of the L7 is more than offset by the accurate-to-1,500 meters punch of the -72's 125mm, likely able to hole a -60 end to end at any battle range found in Brazil. And the T-90 is pretty formidable, if lacking the latest electronic doodads. Venzuelans are more alike to WWII Russians than multi-year Panzer vets. 'Simple and rugged' suits them.


sp

Last edited by Bat (2009-09-13 10:18 pm)

Nervous Neighbors could always make the prudent investment of US javelin and hellfire missiles and be prepared to make quick work of Russian tanks.

sturner wrote:

Most tank battles are fought at ranges under 800 meters. Many are meeting engagements and the battle goes to the side that finds good cover first.

Both according to the historical record of 'classic South American armor battles?' Terrain is extremely important, as you know, and I'm not aware of any direct historical precedents- even 'Nam, with its more similar terrain, offered few armored engagements to learn from.

This is assuming that neither side has the stabilized turrets of today or the fire control systems of today. The export models of the T-72 and T-90 have fire control systems that are closer to what was at Kursk. With technological complexity comes logistical nightmare. The operational rate of most of those tanks will be at 50% 6 months after delivery.

Stabilized turrets they should have. Those were coming in in the waning days of WWII. FCSs will be improved over '43, even on export models, if not up to US/Russian standards; laser systems and the like will perhaps be out, but also somewhat superfluous in jungle conditions.

Fire control on the T-90 includes the PNK-4S/SR AGAT day and night sighting system mounted at the commanders station which allows for night time detection of a tank sized target at ranges between 700 and 1100 meters depending on the version of the sight. Early models of the T-90 were equipped with the TO1-KO1 BURAN sight but later models (T-90S) were upgraded to use the ESSA thermal imaging sight, which allows for accurate firing to a range of 5000-8000 m using the CATHERINE-FC thermal camera produced by Thales Optronique. The gunner is also provided with the 1G46 day sighting system which includes a laser range finder, missile guidance channel and allows tank-sized targets to be detected and engaged at a range from 5000 m to 8000 m. The driver users a TVN-5 day and night sight.

The T-90S is an export model.

Remember that the Soviet, and subsequent Russian tactical/logistical philosophy is that you treat a tank as an expendable item. The engines, treads and road wheels are not designed to hold up past a short term use before the entire unit is expected to be replaced. Combat with Russian tanks is intended to use vast amounts of them to annihilate the enemy with numbers. Losses are replaced with follow on regiments.

Some of that is based on an outdated perception of Soviet doctrine. The USSR never had the assumed rolling unit plan for convential ground invasion of Europe; that was alarmingly debunked by docs captured from WarPac countries, notably East Germany, when the SU fell with great rapidity, precluding time for proper doc disposal. Hopefully Chavez will get models with less-reliable, higher-strung engines, but perhaps not; and remember that .ru tank design has an unbroken lineage from the T-34 to the T-72 & T-90. AFAIK the original V-12 has been continuously developed from the original 450-600HP models up to the 1250HP supercharged variants now in service. Also

MOSCOW, August 6 (RIA Novosti) - The tanks that Venezuela is planning to buy from Russia could be of the T-72 type, a Russian military analyst said on Thursday.

Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez said at a press conference on Wednesday that the country plans to buy several battalions of Russian tanks in response to a possible increase in U.S. military personnel in neighboring Colombia.

"The tanks in question are most likely the T-72 model, which best fit the needs of the Latin American market," said Konstantin Makiyenko, deputy director of the Center for Strategic Analysis, a Moscow based think tank.

He added that Venezuela could afford even new T-90 tanks, but that due to the low price of oil on current markets, it would be more logical to expect the purchase of the T-72.

The price of a T-90 main battle tank (MBT), manufactured by Russia's Uralvagonzavod plant is $5-7 million, while the price of a T-72 model is $1-2 million, the analyst said.

A Russian tank battalion comprises 31 tanks.

Last year, Uralvagonzavod produced a total of 165 T-90 tanks. Over half of the vehicles were exported, and the remaining tanks replaced some of the T-72s in the Russian Armed Forces.

The analyst said Russia may have enough T-72 tanks available for the sale to Venezuela.

Venezuela has already spent around $4 billion since 2005 on Russian arms, including helicopters, fighter planes, and Kalashnikov assault rifles.

http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20090806/155743859.html  &

The Venezuelan army currently has more than 80 outdated French-made AMX-30 main battle tanks and several dozen AMX-13C light tanks.

Venezuela to double number of tanks, boost defenses - Chavez
But you have them already on RSS, no? More recent versions of the autoloaders have improved safety features, and it's the unrelated, tho often confused T-64 which achieved the reputation for complexity & unreliability early on, with its advanced suspension and other new features ('new' decades ago). It was never exported, and with the breakup of the SU, the derivative T-80/84s are Ukrainian exclusives.

If Chavez parades them much he's a fool (tho that precludes nothing. He does have some mil experience at least).

That's likely enough. I lack time to go back over the simpler T-72, but do look forward to our forthcoming Red Orchestra (and future ArmA 2) armor encounters. (NTM Panzer Commander, Panzer Elite, Steel Beasts...)

WAR PORN

"Damn the torpedoes!"