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resedit wrote:

What's your opinion on all the cheering the left did when someone actually threw a shoe at the President, and all the comedy that ensued afterwards? Was that inciting violence?

Because throwing a shoe at someone is funny in a pure slapstick way.

If we had our guns, we would have fought a bloody battle. So, keep your guns, and buy more guns, and buy ammunition. [...] Take back America. Don’t let them take the country into Socialism. And I refer again, Hitler’s party was National Socialism. [...] And that’s what we are having here right now, which is bordering on Marxism.

- conservative speaker Kitty Werthmann, At the How To Take Back America Conference last weekend

OKLAHOMA CITY – Long-secret security tapes showing the chaos immediately after the 1995 bombing of the Oklahoma City federal building are blank in the minutes before the blast and appear to have been edited, an attorney who obtained the recordings said Sunday.
"The real story is what's missing," said Jesse Trentadue, a Salt Lake City attorney who obtained the recordings through the federal Freedom of Information Act as part of an unofficial inquiry he is conducting into the April 19, 1995, bombing that killed 168 people and injured hundreds more.
Trentadue gave copies of the tapes to The Oklahoman newspaper, which posted them online and provided copies to The Associated Press.
The tapes turned over by the FBI came from security cameras various companies had mounted outside office buildings near the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building. They are blank at points before 9:02 a.m., when a truck bomb carrying a 4,000 pound fertilizer-and-fuel-oil bomb detonated in front of the building, Trentadue said.
"Four cameras in four different locations going blank at basically the same time on the morning of April 19, 1995. There ain't no such thing as a coincidence," Trentadue said.
He said government officials claim the security cameras did not record the minutes before the bombing because "they had run out of tape" or "the tape was being replaced."
"The interesting thing is they spring back on after 9:02," he said. "The absence of footage from these crucial time intervals is evidence that there is something there that the FBI doesn't want anybody to see."
A spokesman for the FBI in Oklahoma City, Gary Johnson, declined to comment and referred inquiries about the tapes to FBI officials in Washington, who were not immediately available for comment Sunday.
The soundless recordings show people rushing from nearby buildings after the bomb went off. Some show people fleeing through corridors cluttered with debris. None show the actual explosion that ripped through the federal building.
FBI agents did not report finding any security tapes from the federal building itself.
The FBI in the past refused to release the security camera recordings, leading Trentadue and others to contend the government was hiding evidence that others were involved in the attack.
"It's taken a lawsuit and years to get the tapes," Trentadue said.
He received the latest batch of tapes over the summer in response to an April request for video from security cameras in 11 different locations. Nothing on the tapes was unexpected.
"The more important thing they show is what they don't show," Trentadue said. "These cameras would have shown the various roads and approaches to the Murrah Building."
Trentadue began looking into the bombing after his brother, Kenneth Trentadue, died at the Oklahoma City Federal Transfer Center in August 1995. Kenneth Trentadue was a convicted bank robber who was held at the federal prison after being picked up as a parole violator at his home in San Diego in June 1995.
He was never a bombing suspect, but Jesse Trentadue alleges guards mistook his brother for one and beat him to death during an interrogation. The official cause of Kenneth Trentadue's death is listed as suicide, but his body had 41 wounds and bruises that Jesse Trentadue believes could have come only from a beating.
A judge in 2001 awarded Kenneth Trentadue's family $1.1 million for extreme emotional distress in the government's handling of his death.
Jesse Trentadue said he has received about 30 security tapes, including some images that were used as evidence at bomber Timothy McVeigh's trial. McVeigh was convicted on federal murder and conspiracy charges and executed in 2001. Coconspirator Terry Nichols is serving life in prison on federal and state bombing convictions.
Trentadue said he is seeking more tapes along with a variety of bombing-related documents from the FBI and the CIA. An FOIA request by Trentadue for 26 CIA documents was rejected in June. A letter from the National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency, which reviewed the documents, said their release "could cause grave damage to our national security."
Trentadue said he gave the latest set of tapes to The Oklahoman because of their historical value. The newspaper has agreed to provide copies to the Oklahoma City National Memorial & Museum.

DukeofNuke wrote:

resedit wrote:

...
The Unibomber wasn't a right winger.

Timothy McVeigh was.

My point exactly.
Whackos align themselves with both parties.

That doesn't make the parties "bad". It makes those people whackos.

resedit wrote:

DukeofNuke wrote:

resedit wrote:

...
The Unibomber wasn't a right winger.

Timothy McVeigh was.

My point exactly.
Whackos align themselves with both parties.

That doesn't make the parties "bad". It makes those people whackos.

Ted Kaczynski wasn't a leftist.

one smart/insane bomber.

jerwin wrote:

A schizophrenic.

What about Scott Roeder.
He's also mentally ill, severely so. Many of his beliefs fly in the face of the right.
But you still want to say he's right.

What you are doing is called blatant bias to try and make your point.
Understand something - only the choir listens to that tactic.

resedit wrote:

jerwin wrote:

A schizophrenic.

What about Scott Roeder.
He's also mentally ill, severely so. Many of his beliefs fly in the face of the right.
But you still want to say he's right.

What you are doing is called blatant bias to try and make your point.
Understand something - only the choir listens to that tactic.

Did he do a pro-life manifesto and get in published in the NYT and WaPo both?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/na … o.text.htm

We don't know what defense he'll use, if he ever gets to trial.

I think there's a whole lot of evidence that some not mentally ill (in the strict sense) helped him. I expect the state to say so too in trial.

DukeofNuke wrote:

What are you trying to say?
There is no tape that shows McVeigh parking the truck at the door?
Therefore, It didn't happen?
or
GOVNMERT CONSPIERICY!

While I don't buy the government conspiracy angle, the probability of four independent cameras malfunctioning at the exact same time, and recovering at the exact same time, is so low as to be impossible. It is arguable the blast damaged all four systems, which might explain them all going down at the same time, but you would expect the feed to be good up until the moment the blast wave arrives - and the feed to remain down until the system is repaired.

Assuming the allegations are true, I'd say a strong case could be made that the tapes had been altered given these circumstances. Since the tapes have been turned over to a newpaper, it shouldn't be hard to find out. If so, it would be a disturbing revelation, as this the technical equivalent of redacting a paper document.

Jokotai wrote:

BTW, when an intelligence organization doesn't want a peice of evidence to be released to the media, it disappears.

Well that's not necessarily true.  Laws requiring the disclosure of public information have numerous exceptions that allow for government entities to withhold information (I know, it's all I do all day).  I'd say if there's not a valid exception to disclosure, they'd want it withheld because it contradicts a given stance or because it's embarrassing.

I have no opinion on this particular situation, however.

bratboy wrote:

Jokotai wrote:

BTW, when an intelligence organization doesn't want a peice of evidence to be released to the media, it disappears.

Well that's not necessarily true.  Laws requiring the disclosure of public information have numerous exceptions that allow for government entities to withhold information (I know, it's all I do all day).  I'd say if there's not a valid exception to disclosure, they'd want it withheld because it contradicts a given stance or because it's embarrassing.

I have no opinion on this particular situation, however.

so are you in charge of making this stuff disappear?

From the 'How to Take Back America' conference, GOP Representative Trent Franks:

Obama's first act as president of any consequence, in the middle of a financial meltdown, was to send taxpayers' money overseas to pay for the killing of unborn children in other countries," said Frank. "Now, I got to tell you, if a president will do that, there's almost nothing that you should be surprised at after that. We shouldn't be shocked that he does all these other insane things. A president that has lost his way that badly, that has no ability to see the image of God in these little fellow human beings, if he can't do that right, then he has no place in any station of government and we need to realize that he is an enemy of humanity.

That's certainly not inflammatory....

Link.

Chickenhawk wrote:

resedit wrote:

Chickenhawk wrote:

Ted Kaczynski wasn't a leftist.

What was he then?

An anarchist.

The only kind of right wing anarchists are the ones who are against people trying to regulate the free market. Anarchists like Kropotkin? Bakunin? Proudhon? Zerzan? Chomsky? Leftists, no doubt.

And Ted Kaczynski was definitely a leftist. Just because he was violent and disturbed does not mean his politics didn't exist.

Last edited by StaticAge (2009-09-29 10:45 am)