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robco · 2009-09-30 12:18 pm

resedit wrote:
btw - during Bush, the left argued that we should have stayed out of Iraq and sent more troops to Afghanistan.
That argument actually has a lot of merit to it.

But now that the left is in control, they are reluctant to send troop to Afghanistan that the general on the ground there is specifically requesting. I don't understand it.

Of course not because you only think in absolutes. The idea of a situation changing doesn't register with you. Considering context isn't something conservatives are capable of.

The situation in Afghanistan is different than it was six years ago. We don't have a very good partner in Afghanistan. The Karzai administration isn't terribly effective. It's also been six freakin' years - at this point cutting our losses is something to consider. Afghanistan is the graveyard of empires. They have nothing but sand and dust. It sucks, but it's true. At least Iraq has oil to bring in revenue.

mackerm · 2009-09-30 12:19 pm

Pithecanthropus wrote:
It's not a manifesto, it's not national policy, it's just a smurfing song.

So if the troops rallied to the strains of "Glory Hallelujah" during the Civil War, I guess today's equivalent is ... some sort of Speed Metal?

I hope to God that in 150 years, the kids are taught to sing along to Motörhead instead of Godsmack or Slipknot.

sturner · 2009-09-30 12:30 pm

Strange, that's not the lyrics I learned.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWgsdexkv18

He was just a rookie trooper and he surely shook with fright.
He checked off his equipment and made sure his pack was tight.
He had to sit and listen to those awful engines roar.
You ain't gonna jump no more.

Chorus:
Gory, gory, what a hell of way to die.
Gory, gory, what a hell of way to die.
Gory, gory, what a hell of way to die.
He ain't gonna jump no more.

"Is everybody happy?" cried the sergeant looking up.
Our hero feebly answered, "Yes", and then they stood him up.
He jumped into the icy blast, his static line unhooked.
And he ain't gonna jump no more.

He counted long, he counted loud, he waited for the shock.
He felt the wind, he felt the cold, he felt the awful drop.
The silk from his reserve spilled out and wrapped around his legs.
And he ain't gonna jump no more.

The risers swung around his neck, connectors cracked his dome.
Suspension lines were tied in knots around his skinny bones.
The canopy became his shroud, he hurtled to the ground.
And he ain't gonna jump no more.

The days he lived and loved and laughed kept running through his mind.
He thought about the girl back home, the one he left behind.
He thought about the medicos and wondered what they'd find.
And he ain't gonna jump no more.

The ambulance was on the spot, the jeeps were running wild.
The medics jumped and screamed with glee, rolled up their sleeves and smiled.
For it had been a week or more since last a 'chute had failed.
And he ain't gonna jump no more.

He hit the ground, the sound was "Splat," his blood went spurting high.
His comrades they were heard to say, "A helluva way to die."
He lay there rolling 'round in the welter of his gore.
And he ain't gonna jump no more.

There was blood upon the risers, there were brains upon the 'chute.
Intestines were a-dangling from his paratrooper suit.
He was a mess, they picked him up and poured him from his boots.
And he ain't gonna jump no more.

daemon · 2009-09-30 1:03 pm

Does that go back to WWII era?

That "Is everybody happy?" (Just that part and LOUD) was one my Dad used quite often – dripping with irony.

DukeofNuke · 2009-09-30 1:17 pm

How about this version:

John Brown's body lies a-mold'ring in the grave
John Brown's body lies a-mold'ring in the grave
John Brown's body lies a-mold'ring in the grave
His soul goes marching on

Glory, Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory, Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory, Glory! Hallelujah!
His soul is marching on

He captured Harper's Ferry with his nineteen men so true
He frightened old Virginia till she trembled
through and through
They hung him for a traitor, themselves the traitor crew
His soul is marching on

Glory, Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory, Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory, Glory! Hallelujah!

His soul is marching on
John Brown died that the slave might be free,
John Brown died that the slave might be free,
John Brown died that the slave might be free,
But his soul is marching on!

Glory, Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory, Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory, Glory! Hallelujah!
His soul is marching on

The stars above in Heaven are looking kindly down
The stars above in Heaven are looking kindly down
The stars above in Heaven are looking kindly down
On the grave of old John Brown

Glory, Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory, Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory, Glory! Hallelujah!
His soul is marching on

How does this relate to Saddam Hussein?

DevoDoc · 2009-09-30 1:19 pm

DukeofNuke wrote:
How does this relate to Saddam Hussein?

His body also lies a-mold'ring in the grave? I have serious doubts about his soul marching on.

sturner · 2009-09-30 1:24 pm

daemon wrote:
Does that go back to WWII era?

That "Is everybody happy?" (Just that part and LOUD) was one my Dad used quite often – dripping with irony.

Yes, it does. These lyrics were created durng the formation of the Airborne divisions in early 1940's.

StaticAge · 2009-09-30 1:37 pm

Yeah, it was originally about a radically political rebel who was executed for the incident at Harper's Ferry. The dumbed down version is much more homey sounding, and teaches a different sort of lie: where John Brown was willing to fight, slaughter, and die for his beliefs, the other version(s) teach that its the same thing to follow orders from the government and fight, kill, and die for the goals your superiors desire. I find it odd that for people who are supposedly religious and hold the sacrifice of Christ as sacred to compare the deaths of combatants as if their deaths offered a comparable salvation. I think Wilfred Owen had it right:

DULCE ET DECORUM EST

Bent double, like old beggars under sacks, Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge, Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs And towards our distant rest began to trudge. Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind; Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots Of tired, outstripped Five-Nines that dropped behind.

Gas! Gas! Quick, boys!---An ecstasy of fumbling, Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time; But someone still was yelling out and stumbling, And flound'ring like a man in fire or lime... Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light, As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.

In all my dreams, before my helpless sight, He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.

If in some smothering dreams you too could pace Behind the wagon that we flung him in, And watch the white eyes writhing in his face, His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin; If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs, Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,--- My friend, you would not tell with such high zest To children ardent for some desperate glory, The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est Pro patria mori.

Last edited by StaticAge (2009-09-30 1:39 pm)

Ribtorus · 2009-09-30 1:46 pm

sturner wrote:
daemon wrote:
Does that go back to WWII era?

That "Is everybody happy?" (Just that part and LOUD) was one my Dad used quite often – dripping with irony.
Yes, it does. These lyrics were created durng the formation of the Airborne divisions in early 1940's.

We sang a similar version with unpostable lyrics in my jump course. The chorus was different;

gory gory what a helluva way to die,
with a bayonet up your smurf
and a bullet in yer eye...

sturner · 2009-09-30 1:50 pm

Gas is a potent and evil death. Even nerve gas is evil.

To quote from a movie, "There is no glory in death, only death."

Owen had it right. I have always wondered why the non-combatants find war a noble and glorious occupation. Especially the ones who never serve, refused to serve, or were to good or important to serve.

ShnickyShnack · 2009-09-30 2:00 pm

Ribtorus wrote:
sturner wrote:
daemon wrote:
Does that go back to WWII era?

That "Is everybody happy?" (Just that part and LOUD) was one my Dad used quite often – dripping with irony.
Yes, it does. These lyrics were created durng the formation of the Airborne divisions in early 1940's.
We sang a similar version with unpostable lyrics in my jump course. The chorus was different;

gory gory what a helluva way to die,
with a bayonet up your smurf
and a bullet in yer eye...

Blood on the Risers

He was just a rookie trooper and he surely shook with fright
He checked off his equipment and made sure his pack was tight;
He had to sit and listen to those awful engines roar,
"You ain't gonna jump no more!"
(CHORUS)
Gory, gory, what a helluva way to die,
Gory, gory, what a helluva way to die,
Gory, gory, what a helluva way to die,
He ain't gonna jump no more!
"Is everybody happy?" cried the Sergeant looking up,
Our Hero feebly answered "Yes," and then they stood him up;
He jumped into the icy blast, his static line unhooked,
And he ain't gonna jump no more.
(CHORUS)
He counted long, he counted loud, he waited for the shock,
He felt the wind, he felt the cold, he felt the awful drop,
The silk from his reserve spilled out and wrapped around his legs,
And he ain't gonna jump no more.
(CHORUS)
The risers swung around his neck, connectors cracked his dome,
Suspension lines were tied in knots around his skinny bones;
The canopy became his shroud; he hurtled to the ground.
And he ain't gonna jump no more.
(CHORUS)
The days he'd lived and loved and laughed kept running through his mind,
He thought about the girl back home, the one he'd left behind;
He thought about the medic corps and wondered what they'd find,
And he ain't gonna jump no more.
(CHORUS)
The ambulance was on the spot, the jeeps were running wild,
The medics jumped and screamed with glee, rolled up their sleeves and smiled,
For it had been a week or more since last a 'chute had failed,
And he ain't gonna jump no more.
(CHORUS)
He hit the ground, the sound was "Splat," his blood went spurting high,
His comrades they were hurt to say: "A helluva way to die!"
He lay there rolling round in the welter of his gore,
And he ain't gonna jump no more.
(CHORUS)
(slowly, solemnly)
There was blood upon the risers, there were brains upon the chute,
Intestines were a'dangling from his Paratrooper suit,
He was a mess; they picked him up, and poured him from his boots,
And he ain't gonna jump no more
Gory, gory, what a helluva way to die,
Gory, gory, what a helluva way to die,
Gory, gory, what a helluva way to die,
He ain't gonna jump no more!

Nothing better sums up the high ideals motivating America's participation in the Second World War!

cry

resedit · 2009-09-30 2:06 pm

robco wrote:
The situation in Afghanistan is different than it was six years ago.

Actually what's different is the Dem's won the election, so they don't have to pretend to support action in Afghanistan anymore.

Tallgeese · 2009-09-30 2:10 pm

So, how many and which of "the left" have switched their opinions on troop levels?

sturner · 2009-09-30 2:23 pm

There wasn't any change in supporting Afganistan. The worry has always been that it was the proper area, but it was being ignored for the military adventurism in Iraq. Now that the time to make progress has passed, after 6 years of ignoring the situation, we are faced with a new insurgency with a full support base.

The situation has changed and our attitudes about it need to change as well

Or do you support the notion that we should "reinforce defeat" and keep on the same course without adjusting tactics and strategy to meet the new threat?

bratboy · 2009-09-30 2:38 pm

resedit wrote:
robco wrote:
The situation in Afghanistan is different than it was six years ago.
Actually what's different is the Dem's won the election, so they don't have to pretend to support action in Afghanistan anymore.

Sorry, that's bullsmurf.

Many on "THE LEFT" (read: liberals, not moderate or conservative democrats) were opposed to Afghanistan and have remained opposed to sending additional troops. Personally, I'm not one of those people.

In fact, overall public opinion has shifted over time. Further, majorities of both democrats and independents oppose sending more troops.

jerwin · 2009-09-30 2:51 pm

A few years back, Sarah Vowell did a long piece on John Brown's Body. It's called Teacher hit me with a ruler, which should say something about the interchangeability of lyrics.

Is it somehow more authentic to embrace martyrdom (as Howe's 1861 and 1862 versions do?) Is it somehow more authentic to "embrace direct action" as John Brown did? Or is it just a song about a soldier who shared John Brown's name

When the Union's inspiration through the worker's blood shall run,
There can be no power greater anywhere beneath the sun.
Yet what force on earth is weaker than the feeble strength of one?
But the Union makes us strong.
Chorus
Solidarity forever!
Solidarity forever!
Solidarity forever!
But the Union makes us strong.

Is there aught we hold in common with the greedy parasite
Who would lash us into serfdom and would crush us with his might?
Is there anything left for us but to organize and fight?
For the Union makes us strong.

It is we who plowed the prairies; built the cities where they trade.
Dug the mines and built the workshops; endless miles of railroad laid.
Now we stand, outcast and starving, 'mid the wonders we have made;
But the Union makes us strong.

All the world that's owned by idle drones, is ours and ours alone.
We have laid the wide foundations; built it skywards, stone by stone.
It is ours, not to slave in, but to master and to own,
While the Union makes us strong.

They have taken untold millions that they never toiled to earn.
But without our brain and muscle not a single wheel can turn.
We can break their haughty power; gain our freedom when we learn
That the Union makes us strong.

In our hands is placed a power greater than their hoarded gold;
Greater than the might of armies, magnified a thousand fold.
We can bring to birth the new world from the ashes of the old,
For the Union makes us strong.

Solidarity Forever, another "version"

Last edited by jerwin (2009-09-30 2:52 pm)

ShnickyShnack · 2009-09-30 2:57 pm

resedit wrote:
robco wrote:
The situation in Afghanistan is different than it was six years ago.
Actually what's different is the Dem's won the election, so they don't have to pretend to support action in Afghanistan anymore.

Personally I've gone from supporting the Afghan war to turning against it.

robco · 2009-09-30 3:16 pm

resedit wrote:
Actually what's different is the Dem's won the election, so they don't have to pretend to support action in Afghanistan anymore.

I opposed military action in Afghanistan. The military is a blunt instrument and we needed a scalpel. Personally I think our intelligence agencies needed to have taken the lead with small military special forces units as needed. We can't defeat AQ through military might, it just isn't going to happen. That being said, I wasn't as enraged as I was when US troops invaded Iraq.

Today, we've been there for eight years with little to show for it. There's no strong economy, no revenue to share among different factions. There's little hope of building a government that can truly govern. It would also appear that AQ has largely abandoned Afghanistan, so our focus needs to shift elsewhere. The Taliban is gone, Karzai is in power and now it will be up to him to stay in power.

But ultimately we need to recruit people who can infiltrate terrorist organizations and provide information or carry out targeted assassinations.

But as usual, you paint any change of view as being due to something superficial rather than even entertaining the notion that someone can process new information, reanalyze an issue an change an opinion. I can understand why social conservatives view everything in black and white, it saves a lot of thinking. Don't think, just obey or as we used to sing in church, trust and obey. Sorry, I don't do that. If changing my mind is a sign of weakness in your eyes, then I'm weak and proud of it.

jerwin · 2009-09-30 3:48 pm

OH NOES! Could this thread be about Glenn Beck?

Let me go back to the Battle Hymn of the Republic — you know, the song where they changed the words to make it about Obama — and my favorite stanza:

In the beauty of the lilies Christ was born across the sea,
With a glory in his bosom that transfigures you and me:
As he died to make men holy, let us die to make men free,
While God is marching on.

Last edited by jerwin (2009-09-30 3:48 pm)

ShnickyShnack · 2009-09-30 3:58 pm

Bus-teeeeeed.

D'Eyncourt · 2009-09-30 4:04 pm

robco wrote:
[snip]
Today, we've been there for eight years with little to show for it. There's no strong economy, no revenue to share among different factions. There's little hope of building a government that can truly govern. It would also appear that AQ has largely abandoned Afghanistan, so our focus needs to shift elsewhere. The Taliban is gone, Karzai is in power and now it will be up to him to stay in power.
[snip--bold added]

Others would beg to differ.

Pariah · 2009-09-30 4:26 pm

Trying to paint our invasion of Iraq as some sort of humanitarian effort is despicably dishonest.
Now, here we are looking at an Iraq that is broken in to waring factions and Iran has become extremely influential. Where there is peace in Iraq it is the peace of a people under the boot of Islamic law which is hardly more free than they were under Sadam.
Because we took out their greatest threat Iran has been able to relax and devote it's resources to the development of nukes which they wouldnt have had the military budget for if they still had a madman at the gates.
We killed the madman and thus, today we have an Iran on the verge of becoming a nuclear power.
Bush smurfed us badly with the stupid invasion of Iraq and didnt do the Iraqis any favors either.

Graphic Autist · 2009-09-30 6:19 pm

DevoDoc wrote:
I've come to tell the story
of the burning of the school.
We have tortured every teacher.
We have broken every rule.
We plan to hang the principal
tomorrow after school.
At last we will be free.

Glory, glory, hallelujah,
Teacher hit me with a ruler.
I met her in the attic
with a fully automatic
and she ain't my teacher no more.
That's the way I learned it. Is that not the original lyrics?

I was thinking as I was typing this, if kids sang those lyrics these days they'd be suspended until they had a psychological evaluation.

No, no, no!

It goes like this:

Glory, glory, hallelujah,
Teacher hit me with a ruler
So I hid behind the door
With a loaded .44
And she ain't my teacher no more

And then we'd invade a country.

resedit · 2009-09-30 6:31 pm

Pariah wrote:
Trying to paint our invasion of Iraq as some sort of humanitarian effort is despicably dishonest.

No. It's not.

Tallgeese · 2009-09-30 6:34 pm

Yes it is.

Forums | MacLife

#26 2009-09-30 12:18 pm

Re: Battle Hymn of the Republic

resedit wrote:

#27 2009-09-30 12:19 pm

Re: Battle Hymn of the Republic

Pithecanthropus wrote:

#28 2009-09-30 12:30 pm

Re: Battle Hymn of the Republic

#29 2009-09-30 1:03 pm

Re: Battle Hymn of the Republic

#30 2009-09-30 1:17 pm

Re: Battle Hymn of the Republic

#31 2009-09-30 1:19 pm

Re: Battle Hymn of the Republic

DukeofNuke wrote:

#32 2009-09-30 1:24 pm

Re: Battle Hymn of the Republic

daemon wrote:

#33 2009-09-30 1:37 pm

Re: Battle Hymn of the Republic

#34 2009-09-30 1:46 pm

Re: Battle Hymn of the Republic

sturner wrote:

daemon wrote:

#35 2009-09-30 1:50 pm

Re: Battle Hymn of the Republic

#36 2009-09-30 2:00 pm

Re: Battle Hymn of the Republic

Ribtorus wrote:

sturner wrote:

daemon wrote:

#37 2009-09-30 2:06 pm

Re: Battle Hymn of the Republic

robco wrote:

#38 2009-09-30 2:10 pm

Re: Battle Hymn of the Republic

#39 2009-09-30 2:23 pm

Re: Battle Hymn of the Republic

#40 2009-09-30 2:38 pm

Re: Battle Hymn of the Republic

resedit wrote:

robco wrote:

#41 2009-09-30 2:51 pm

Re: Battle Hymn of the Republic

#42 2009-09-30 2:57 pm

Re: Battle Hymn of the Republic

resedit wrote:

robco wrote:

#43 2009-09-30 3:16 pm

Re: Battle Hymn of the Republic

resedit wrote:

#44 2009-09-30 3:48 pm

Re: Battle Hymn of the Republic

#45 2009-09-30 3:58 pm

Re: Battle Hymn of the Republic

#46 2009-09-30 4:04 pm

Re: Battle Hymn of the Republic

robco wrote:

#47 2009-09-30 4:26 pm

Re: Battle Hymn of the Republic

#48 2009-09-30 6:19 pm

Re: Battle Hymn of the Republic

DevoDoc wrote:

#49 2009-09-30 6:31 pm

Re: Battle Hymn of the Republic

Pariah wrote:

#50 2009-09-30 6:34 pm

Re: Battle Hymn of the Republic

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