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Tallgeese wrote:

I never much liked ABS anyway.

I would be interested in hearing why you feel that way.

Because I drove non-ABS vehicles from age 16 to 23 and got used to it, including being able to handle a RWD, non-ABS vehicle in rain, snow, and ice. I don't like the shudder and I don't like having another layer of complexity in my vehicle.

I not only have ABS but also 4WD (4HI, 4LO and Auto 4WD).

ABS has saved my bacon and car on several occasions. Some cars were built with an artificial vibration feedback but mine was not. resedit hit the nail with the education issue. People should take a performance driving class to learn their car and how it reacts in panic situations. Or find an empty icy/wet parking lot and work it out for yourself. It's also fun if the cops don't stop you!

Bren wrote:

Try getting up to speed sometime on a wet road, in an ABS-equipped vehicle, and then taking your hands off the wheel and abruptly mashing the brake pedal into the floor.

What was suggested to us was to see if we could find a shopping mall parking lot on a rainy night to try it.

Parking lots are usually private property so they aren't patrolled by police.
They may be patrolled by private security though.

Guess I would have been in trouble when I was driving fast down an empty parking lot at night in my red MG mini with a busty redhead standing up in the passenger seat yelling in the wind.

Bren wrote:

Being able to come to a safe, short, controlled stop on a road that is wet with rain and slick with oil is a lot to give up because you don't like the shudder. Try getting up to speed sometime on a wet road, in an ABS-equipped vehicle, and then taking your hands off the wheel and abruptly mashing the brake pedal into the floor. If that doesn't sell you on ABS, nothing will.

No. I prefer to adapt my driving to road conditions so I don't need a computer to save my dumb ass.

Regarding this shudder: I drive a car with ABS, and I almost never experience any kind of shudder. Rest assured, my driving style does necessitate a lot of hard braking. If you have a car with ABS, and its brake pedal routinely shudders, maybe some adjustment is called for?

Not routinely, but every ABS car I've driven has done it with hard braking.

Well, next time I'm going 60mph down icy roads I'll care about that. But as it is, I choose to drive carefully and not rely on technology to compensate for lack of road awareness.

Bren wrote:

There's no way even the most skilled driver in the world can stop a non-ABS car quicker than the same car with ABS.

About ten years ago, I saw some thing on the discovery channel about exactly this. It was pre-mythbusters, I guess.

But anyway, in dry safe conditions, non-ABS stops quicker.

It's when you're in not-perfect conditions, like a gravel road, that ABS helps a lot.

I would much rather stop short of a deer than swerve into oncoming traffic.

There was an article in Car & Driver (before they went downhill) that talked about the difference between American and European "safety". Europeans, it seems, prefer nimble little death traps that allow you to avoid an accident at the cost of survivability. Americans want giant metal bubbles that allow you safely survive an accident, at the cost of maneuverability.

This essentially means that a tight little roadster will help you stay out of trouble, but if trouble finds you anyway; you are done. On the other hand, the giant SUV will likely end up rolling all over the road at the slightest hint of trouble, but odds are good at least a few people will walk away with just a few broken bones.

It's a tough trade off. Personally, I find my driving style lends itself to the more maneuverable vehicles. I don't even bother with the horn until after the fact. I tend to steer out of trouble, and either brake or accelerate as needed.

Case in point, this morning some jackass started merging into my lane, because the idiot in front of him wasn't moving fast enough. My car was far enough ahead that braking would have put me in the absolute worst place - so I accelerated, and ducked into the service lane briefly. After closer inspection, it was clear this particular genius had an ongoing road-rage problem from the amount of damage on his car.

Tallgeese wrote:

I take issue with your "giant SUV" comment. I learned to drive in a 1986 Suburban. I drove it in rain, snow, and ice. I learned to steer out of a skid, brake properly, and other useful things. I never rolled it all over the road, despite hitting black ice on a highway exit ramp.

A "giant SUV" is only a problem if you think that it's like an invulnerable version of your Nissan Sentra - drive it like a car, except without regard to any road conditions.

Almost any vehicle can be driven in a safe, appropriate manner; or in a horribly unsafe, inappropriate manner.

However, the attraction for most people to SUV's is that they are huge, let you look out over all the other vehicles, and put a lot of metal between you and the other car. They are, for most people, safety theatre.

I don't necessarily have a problem with SUV's - they certainly have their place - but the average SUV owner thinks of their vehicle as a safety bubble, and drive it accordingly.