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#1 2009-10-30 2:57 pm

radarman
Member
Registered: 2005-02-28
Posts: 3589

Global "geo-engineering" - Where is Duncan Mcloud when you need him?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33495560/ns … vironment/

We can probably engineer Earth's climate to cool the planet, scientists say, but are we willing to live with the downsides? Those could include creating more droughts, more ozone holes and, oh yeah, a thin cloud layer that obscures blue skies and gives astronomers fits.

With potential negatives like that it's no wonder that "geoengineering," as the technique is called, has few hardcore advocates.

Instead, a growing cadre of scientists is asking whether it should be a "Plan B" in case emissions of greenhouse gases aren't reduced in time to head off major consequences.
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Experts gathered Friday at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology were discussing just that at a seminar called "Engineering a Cooler Earth: Can We Do It? Should We Try?"

Two key geoengineering approaches have surfaced: removing carbon dioxide from the atmosphere, and reflecting the Sun's rays away from Earth.

The former focuses on using the oceans to absorb carbon dioxide, which takes a long time and acidifies the seas, harming corals and shellfish.

The latter is seen as more realistic, especially the leading strategy of lobbing sulfur into the atmosphere the way volcanoes do. The 1991 eruption of Mount Pinatubo in the Philippines cooled the planet by 0.9 degrees Fahrenheit.

While it doesn't remove CO2 — and as a result, ocean acidification would continue — adding sulfur could reduce temperatures quickly.

Weighing pros, cons
At issue, though, is whether the benefits would outweigh the costs.

In a study published this week on the sulfur approach, a Rutgers University team stacked benefits against costs. The key pros: a cooler planet; reduced or reversed melting of ice sheets and Arctic sea ice; and increased plant productivity.

The key cons: more droughts in Africa and Asia; oceans would still be acidifying; creation of ozone holes in the Arctic; reduced solar energy production; and those less blue skies and frustrated astronomers.

"We have not calculated how hazy yet, but it would be global," lead study author Alan Robock told msnbc.com. "Injection into the tropical stratosphere would produce a global cloud. It would have to be regular with the frequency depending on the injection method and the thickness of the desired cloud."

Writing in the peer-reviewed journal Geophysical Research Letters, the team concluded that, given existing technology, the best method of lobbing aerosols would be via high-altitude military jets at a cost of several billion dollars a year.

But it also warned that more needs to be learned before society is sufficiently informed to make a decision.

"Several billion dollars per year is a lot of money, but compared to the international gross national product, this amount would not be a limiting factor in the decision of whether to proceed with geoengineering," the authors wrote. "Rather, other concerns, including reduction of Asian monsoon rainfall, ozone depletion, reduction of solar power, psychological effects of no more blue skies, and political and ethical issues, will need to be compared to the potential advantages before society can make this decision."

Are these guys kidding? I suppose strategically polluting the upper atmosphere would induce the kind of particulate induced cooling we saw before the clean air act, but it sounds like the side effects could be worse than the effects of global warming itself.

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#2 2009-10-30 3:05 pm

Tallgeese
Sternly Advising
From: Pool Party
Registered: 2000-10-17
Posts: 34012

Re: Global "geo-engineering" - Where is Duncan Mcloud when you need him?

I just go with the belief that no government will be stupid enough to fund people like this on an appreciable scale.


I still believe in liberalism today as much as I ever did, but, oh, there was a happy time when I believed in liberals.

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#3 2009-10-30 3:22 pm

jerwin
Sophist
From: The Garden of Pure Ideology
Registered: 2003-01-01
Posts: 7022

Re: Global "geo-engineering" - Where is Duncan Mcloud when you need him?

Benefits, risks, and costs of stratospheric geoengineering

Geoengineering has long been advocated as a panacea, in lieu of drastic greenhouse gas reductions. This paper simply analyzes how the panacea would be implemented, how much the panacea would cost, and most importantly why the panacea is not really a panacea. People who argue against GeoEngineering with vague invocations of hubris should be glad that their fears have been validated by scientific inquiry.


Some subjects actually enjoy pain, and withhold information they might otherwise have divulged in order to be punished.
Central Intelligence Agency. (1983). Human Resource Exploitation Training Manual

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#4 2009-10-30 4:40 pm

sturner
Royal High Poobah
Moderator
From: Carrollton, TX USA
Registered: 2000-01-31
Posts: 13767

Re: Global "geo-engineering" - Where is Duncan Mcloud when you need him?

Take a garden hose 100k feet long, float it into the atmosphere with helium balloons and solar battery powered pumps, and pump the chemical up there.

This is a scenario, no smurf!


I'm not dead yet.
There are 3 types of people, those who can count and those who can't.
"There are few things graven in stone, excepting your date of death."

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#5 2009-10-30 4:48 pm

Pariah
James Carville Fan..
From: Belly Of The Beast, Oklahoma!
Registered: 2001-05-24
Posts: 18394

Re: Global "geo-engineering" - Where is Duncan Mcloud when you need him?

Nothing good will come of this.


"and it's not surprising that they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."
Barack Obama

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#6 2009-10-30 5:41 pm

jerwin
Sophist
From: The Garden of Pure Ideology
Registered: 2003-01-01
Posts: 7022

Re: Global "geo-engineering" - Where is Duncan Mcloud when you need him?

sturner wrote:

Take a garden hose 100k feet long, float it into the atmosphere with helium balloons and solar battery powered pumps, and pump the chemical up there.

This is a scenario, no smurf!

But will it work?


Some subjects actually enjoy pain, and withhold information they might otherwise have divulged in order to be punished.
Central Intelligence Agency. (1983). Human Resource Exploitation Training Manual

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#7 2009-10-30 5:45 pm

Bat
Flawless Cowboy
Royal Wombat
From: Björk, Björk
Registered: 2001-05-14
Posts: 28541

Re: Global "geo-engineering" - Where is Duncan Mcloud when you need him?

jerwin wrote:

sturner wrote:

Take a garden hose 100k feet long, float it into the atmosphere with helium balloons and solar battery powered pumps, and pump the chemical up there.

This is a scenario, no smurf!

But will it work?

Jerwin... you didn't try for a second straight sturner 'grammer nazi' pin correcting Mcloud to McLeod? What is the world coming to?


If all economists were laid end to end, they would not reach a conclusion - George Bernard Shaw

"Fire up a colortini, sit back, relax, and watch the pictures, now, as they fly through the air."

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#8 2009-10-30 5:53 pm

Robert B.
Reality Deficient
From: The pit of despair
Registered: 1999-03-09
Posts: 10269

Re: Global "geo-engineering" - Where is Duncan Mcloud when you need him?

They wrote about this in SuperFreakonomics


"Evil will always triumph because Good is dumb."

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#9 2009-10-30 6:27 pm

jerwin
Sophist
From: The Garden of Pure Ideology
Registered: 2003-01-01
Posts: 7022

Re: Global "geo-engineering" - Where is Duncan Mcloud when you need him?

Bat wrote:

jerwin wrote:

sturner wrote:

Take a garden hose 100k feet long, float it into the atmosphere with helium balloons and solar battery powered pumps, and pump the chemical up there.

This is a scenario, no smurf!

But will it work?

Jerwin... you didn't try for a second straight sturner 'grammer nazi' pin correcting Mcloud to McLeod? What is the world coming to?

It's MacLeod, you uncouth Sassenach!

Happy, now?


Some subjects actually enjoy pain, and withhold information they might otherwise have divulged in order to be punished.
Central Intelligence Agency. (1983). Human Resource Exploitation Training Manual

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#10 2009-10-30 6:30 pm

Bat
Flawless Cowboy
Royal Wombat
From: Björk, Björk
Registered: 2001-05-14
Posts: 28541

Re: Global "geo-engineering" - Where is Duncan Mcloud when you need him?

big_smile

If we didn't feed you material, you'd starve. Wouldn't want that.

(On second thought...)


If all economists were laid end to end, they would not reach a conclusion - George Bernard Shaw

"Fire up a colortini, sit back, relax, and watch the pictures, now, as they fly through the air."

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#11 2009-10-30 6:38 pm

jerwin
Sophist
From: The Garden of Pure Ideology
Registered: 2003-01-01
Posts: 7022

Re: Global "geo-engineering" - Where is Duncan Mcloud when you need him?

(I recently got heavily downmoderated on slashdot, so quipping no longer seems as joyful.)


Some subjects actually enjoy pain, and withhold information they might otherwise have divulged in order to be punished.
Central Intelligence Agency. (1983). Human Resource Exploitation Training Manual

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#12 2009-10-30 9:03 pm

sturner
Royal High Poobah
Moderator
From: Carrollton, TX USA
Registered: 2000-01-31
Posts: 13767

Re: Global "geo-engineering" - Where is Duncan Mcloud when you need him?

But we wuv you!


I'm not dead yet.
There are 3 types of people, those who can count and those who can't.
"There are few things graven in stone, excepting your date of death."

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#13 2009-10-30 9:08 pm

radarman
Member
Registered: 2005-02-28
Posts: 3589

Re: Global "geo-engineering" - Where is Duncan Mcloud when you need him?

jerwin wrote:

(I recently got heavily downmoderated on slashdot, so quipping no longer seems as joyful.)

I wouldn't worry about it. Slashdot users down mod anyone who dares speak against the prevailing group think with vicious and terrible efficiency.

Oh, wait...

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#14 2009-10-30 9:10 pm

sturner
Royal High Poobah
Moderator
From: Carrollton, TX USA
Registered: 2000-01-31
Posts: 13767

Re: Global "geo-engineering" - Where is Duncan Mcloud when you need him?

::: makes certain subtle adjustments to radarman's account on account of him just irritating a God-like moderator. :::


I'm not dead yet.
There are 3 types of people, those who can count and those who can't.
"There are few things graven in stone, excepting your date of death."

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#15 2009-11-01 7:25 am

Bat
Flawless Cowboy
Royal Wombat
From: Björk, Björk
Registered: 2001-05-14
Posts: 28541

Re: Global "geo-engineering" - Where is Duncan Mcloud when you need him?

Isn't daemon overdue to weigh in with some kind of conspiracy theory musing on the relationship of certain God-like moderators to certain rustic country sheriffs from rural parts of the United States- e.g., were they ever seen together? Are they even now in deep cover, investigating the fate of certain bullets, whereabouts unknown?

Sturner McCloud


If all economists were laid end to end, they would not reach a conclusion - George Bernard Shaw

"Fire up a colortini, sit back, relax, and watch the pictures, now, as they fly through the air."

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#16 2009-11-01 7:29 am

resedit
Chicken Little
Royal Wombat
From: /dev/null
Registered: 1999-11-01
Posts: 50368
Website

Re: Global "geo-engineering" - Where is Duncan Mcloud when you need him?

would induce the kind of particulate induced cooling we saw before the clean air act

Nice way to try and sneak in an excuse for why the earth was cooling prior to the 80s despite increasing CO2.
Sorry - clean air act is responsible for global warming.

The earth warms and cools and warms and cools - I don't understand why that is such a hard concept to grasp.


In her right hand Jenny held the Bible of her mother
Jenny had a pistol in the other
-- Steve Taylor

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#17 2009-11-01 8:23 am

Pariah
James Carville Fan..
From: Belly Of The Beast, Oklahoma!
Registered: 2001-05-24
Posts: 18394

Re: Global "geo-engineering" - Where is Duncan Mcloud when you need him?

resedit wrote:

would induce the kind of particulate induced cooling we saw before the clean air act

Nice way to try and sneak in an excuse for why the earth was cooling prior to the 80s despite increasing CO2.
Sorry - clean air act is responsible for global warming.

The earth warms and cools and warms and cools - I don't understand why that is such a hard concept to grasp.

Quick, better get the word out to climatologists about your discovery!!

Imagine, a Linux admin figuring out a problem that has all the climate scientists troubled. I for one feel good now that you have solved this problem for us.


Have a cookie.


"and it's not surprising that they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."
Barack Obama

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#18 2009-11-01 8:30 am

resedit
Chicken Little
Royal Wombat
From: /dev/null
Registered: 1999-11-01
Posts: 50368
Website

Re: Global "geo-engineering" - Where is Duncan Mcloud when you need him?

There's another cycle that goes back as far as the printing press - whatever cycle we happen to be in, the media and "scientists" fear that is running away to one extreme or the other. What's happening now is no different.


In her right hand Jenny held the Bible of her mother
Jenny had a pistol in the other
-- Steve Taylor

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#19 2009-11-01 8:02 pm

sturner
Royal High Poobah
Moderator
From: Carrollton, TX USA
Registered: 2000-01-31
Posts: 13767

Re: Global "geo-engineering" - Where is Duncan Mcloud when you need him?

Hasten together, for the quickening will be exquisite, and there can be only ONE!


I'm not dead yet.
There are 3 types of people, those who can count and those who can't.
"There are few things graven in stone, excepting your date of death."

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#20 2009-11-01 8:07 pm

Tallgeese
Sternly Advising
From: Pool Party
Registered: 2000-10-17
Posts: 34012

Re: Global "geo-engineering" - Where is Duncan Mcloud when you need him?

resedit wrote:

The earth warms and cools and warms and cools - I don't understand why that is such a hard concept to grasp.

Probably because you don't grasp the concept.


I still believe in liberalism today as much as I ever did, but, oh, there was a happy time when I believed in liberals.

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#21 2009-11-01 8:10 pm

sturner
Royal High Poobah
Moderator
From: Carrollton, TX USA
Registered: 2000-01-31
Posts: 13767

Re: Global "geo-engineering" - Where is Duncan Mcloud when you need him?

Normally the cycle is much longer in duration that what we are experiencing today. That alters the concept.


I'm not dead yet.
There are 3 types of people, those who can count and those who can't.
"There are few things graven in stone, excepting your date of death."

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#22 2009-11-01 8:32 pm

Zapata
Member
From: Madrid, Spain
Registered: 2000-11-08
Posts: 828

Re: Global "geo-engineering" - Where is Duncan Mcloud when you need him?

I don't see what the big deal is. This appears to be a conference to discuss the hypotheticals. I'll be worried when there is actually a movement to start messing with the atmosphere.

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#23 2009-11-01 9:43 pm

jerwin
Sophist
From: The Garden of Pure Ideology
Registered: 2003-01-01
Posts: 7022

Re: Global "geo-engineering" - Where is Duncan Mcloud when you need him?

Zapata wrote:

I don't see what the big deal is. This appears to be a conference to discuss the hypotheticals. I'll be worried when there is actually a movement to start messing with the atmosphere.

Precisely. And it seems that this conference has rather dampened my enthusiasm for the "aerosol solution".


Some subjects actually enjoy pain, and withhold information they might otherwise have divulged in order to be punished.
Central Intelligence Agency. (1983). Human Resource Exploitation Training Manual

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#24 2009-11-02 9:42 am

user
Your plastic pal who's fun to be with
From: I'm not getting you down, am I
Registered: 2001-10-15
Posts: 16016

Re: Global "geo-engineering" - Where is Duncan Mcloud when you need him?

sturner wrote:

Normally the cycle is much longer in duration that what we are experiencing today. That alters the concept.

[darth]Pray we don't alter the concept further.[/darth]


Aw, he's no fun, he fell right over.

Unless you become as little children, there's no way you will believe this crap.

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#25 2009-11-02 9:46 am

user
Your plastic pal who's fun to be with
From: I'm not getting you down, am I
Registered: 2001-10-15
Posts: 16016

Re: Global "geo-engineering" - Where is Duncan Mcloud when you need him?

Gee whiz, instead of trying to clean up our mess, we should attempt a risky global effort to smurfing PATCH THE SKY?

Last edited by user (2009-11-02 9:47 am)


Aw, he's no fun, he fell right over.

Unless you become as little children, there's no way you will believe this crap.

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