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Bravo to both the Vatican and to President Bush for their seemingly joint and combined opposition to perversion! Although the President could not propose, certainly the Vatican could, the re-establishment of leper colonies for such vermin that spread perversion.

Camp David

God hates gays and lesbians almost as much as he apparently hates kids, if the Vatican is any indication.

This reminds me of when I was in high school, my sister and I were arguing over who got to use the phone. My dad, a mild-mannered fellow who rarely lost his temper, finally got fed up and stomped down the hall and ripped the phone cords right out of the jacks in both our rooms, breaking both jacks in the process (silly since had to fix them himself the next day).

Man, the uncomfortable silence that came after that moment ...

Anyway, back to the topic at hand.

Well, there is no link between celibacy and pedophilia - most pedophiles are married.

If it's true that most pedophiles are married, that doesn't mean that there is no link between compulsory celibacy and pedophilia

And, it doesn't mean there is no link between pedophilia and the institution called the Catholic Church.

Compulsory celibacy is one part of that institution and may not be the only factor involved, although that does not mean it's not involved.

It's clear that the Catholic Church has a very serious problem with sexual behavior, especially concerning pedophilia and sexual interactions between adolescents and members of Church staff (priests, nuns, etc.).

Sex drive has been called the strongest urge. I think food is a stronger urge, and sleep, too. But, it's clear that, for most people, sex drive has a very powerful role in life. Denying it, logically, presents a conflict that must be continually dealt with. Gay men who marry women and refrain from homosexual sex often masturbate to thoughts involving men or images. Some of them cheat on their wives. Some of them even have 3-ways with their wives and another man. These guys are not heterosexual. They're gay and married to women. Men and women who choose to submit to compulsory celibacy are not "non-sexual." They're still sexual beings. It may be that the sex drive, particularly in males, is reduced when the sex organs are not used. I've read about reduced testosterone production in male elephants who don't have sex (while those who do have raised levels). Plus, I don't think exercise is a major component of Catholic life, generally. Those who are sedentary often have reduced testosterone levels.

However, it's clear that there is a correlation between life as a Catholic staff member (particularly for males) and deviant sexual behavior. It's clear because there are so many cases. Is there an Episcopal scandal? Baptist? Lutheran? Jewish? Islamic? Buddist?

It's not natural or humane to repress one's sex drive. It leads to drastic actions for some, such as sexual relations with minors. Plus, the Catholic Church is seen as a haven for pedophiles and repressed homosexuals.

Oh. I forgot. You only care about reason, fairness, diversity, and smashing stereotypes if it involves homosexual, XYZ

What are you talking about? The Catholic Church is bashing gays and I'm saying that the Church needs to get its own problems with pedophilia and sexual health in general resolved. It's hypocritical for the Vatican to say gay marriage is a threat to families when it's the Church that's been so harmful to families due to predatory staff! And, the Church's agenda of hate regarding bisexuals, gays, lesbians, etc. is hypocritical, because heterosexism/homophobia hurts families. It doesn't strengthen them.

Maybe they think it's a good thing to promote heterosexism/homophobia because it leads to increase applications for the priesthood. After all, if there are a lot of gay men who want to hide their sexuality, justify themselves by embracing their religion that promotes self-loathing, etc... what could be better for making sure there's a good supply than promoting the very thing that makes them want to repress themselves/justify their existence?

How many people really want to be nuns or priests? How attractive is it to be forced to deny one's sex drive? Maybe the Vatican realizes that trying to de-sex gays by promoting homophobia/heterosexism is a way to maintain an applicant pool?

I've personally known an ex-monk who is gay, and three priests who are gay. Two of them are a couple and have been for 12 years. Historical accounts talk of homosexuality being commonplace in monastaries and in the Church itself - even way back. I don't understand why gay men are so weak as to be unable to stand up and be proud of who they are, rather than retreat into the strange safety of self-repression/loathing that Catholicism provides. Some of them can't even admit that they're gay. I know a man who just finished his Seminary training (or whatever) and he talked about how much he was turned on by women's breasts at dinner. The man is stereotypically gay and he is overcompensating big time. He's embraced the Catholic priest lifestyle and completely repressed all aspects of his sexuality. I don't think it's healthy.

I don't consider sexual interest in sexually-functional adolescents pedophilia. So, cases of repressed gay men who have sexual encountered with adolescents are often called cases of pedophilia by mistake and lumped in with cases of true pedophilia (pedophilia, by my definition, involves non-sexual pre-pubescent children). There are far more repressed gay men in the Church, I bet, than there are true pedophiles. I bet there are more repressed gay men in the Church than there are heterosexual men.

The film American Beauty showed how a heterosexual man can be aroused by a 15-year old girl. In fact, the two almost had sex. I think that when people, especially males, who have remained celibate for long periods of time are put in the position of being in close contact with sexually-functional adolescents, that sexual interaction is bound to happen in many instances. The sex drive is powerful.

The Church does not have a stance against homosexual clergy.  Due to the celibacy requirement, sexual orientation is a non-issue.  Nobody needs to hide it.

Right now, the Vatican has a morally conservative Pope. There are major factions within the Church that are pushing for change.  This cannot be ignored.

Also important to realize is that the Roman Catholic Church is not an American institution.  The Church in America has had a problem with pedophilia incidences, but the rest of the world really hasn't.  That sort of belies the idea that celibacy creates child molesters.

Oh, and please don't use American Beauty as proof of anything.

The Church does not have a stance against homosexual clergy.  Due to the celibacy requirement, sexual orientation is a non-issue.  Nobody needs to hide it.

Now that is just not true. I can't believe anyone in their right mind would be able to convince themselves of that. If you can provide a list of openly gay Catholic priests, I might give your position some credence. But really, there's just no freakin' way this is reality. Sorry.

No, because there isn't a prevailing anti-Protestant sentiment while there is an anti-Catholic sentiment that has existed since the founding of this nation. It is no coincidence that there has only been one Catholic president of the U.S. During the height of the Catholic sex scandals, NPR ran a story about how one third of Protestant clergy has engaged in improper sexual behavior with their clergy, usually with teenagers being "counseled." However, since it is Protestant churches and the victims are female, it gets no press.

Ah... It's a vast anti-Catholic conspiracy. That's why when CNN reported the 12 page document (etc.) this morning, the sex scandals weren't mentioned, and the word hypocrisy has never appeared in a single mainstream article I've read concerning the Catholic Church and homophobia/heterosexism.

If you have any proof that deviant sexual behavior is as rampant in other religious bodies as it is within the Catholic Church, please supply it!

I'll look.

Oh, and that stuff isn't mentioned in articles because that's called editorializing.  You'll find plenty of it in editorials.

Okay, how is this: They don't need to hide it any more than they would need to if they were in the congregation. If they're in a conservative area, they'd be just as in the closet as a teacher or barber. If they're in a liberal area, it doesn't matter.

I call this rationalization and irrelevant.

But really, there's just no freakin' way this is reality. Sorry.

Ok. Game over. Thanks for playing.

The Pope is morally conservative.  He has stated that the official stance of the Church is that sexual orientation is in-born, unalterable, and therefore cannot be a sin.  However, he still says that homosexual behavior is morally wrong.

That was a non-editorialized statement of fact.  That is what the Pope has said.