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#1 2003-01-01 6:19 pm

SuperJosh
Member
From: Not.........here?
Registered: 2002-12-16
Posts: 37

a thought on g4 towers

Hey, I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before, but something occured to me over the holidays.

Apple did some wierd things with the new mirrored door PowerMacs.  For instance, they didn't really take advantage of the new (for the mac) DDR RAM and they installed a massively huge hint sink (what is it, six pounds!?).  Why the heck would Apple almost intentionally hobble high speed ram (which is kind of made up for with direct memory access) and stick a heat sink heavy enough to sink a small ship?

This is my thought...  Apple is going to stick in three or four G4's and remove the ram bottleneck, thereby giving a huge jump in performance, rather than just an incremental upgrade.

Now, this might really hack some people off by so radically upgrading these machines so soon after their introduction, but it might not be so far fetched to do so in February or March maybe.

What do you guys think?  Am I smoking something, or is this plausible?  If so, why?  Is there a technical issue going on, like heat dissipation?

-Josh

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#2 2003-01-01 8:38 pm

Nefarious
Tuning Fork
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From: 45°22"N 84°57"W
Registered: 2002-09-30
Posts: 7998

Re: a thought on g4 towers

Not a new line of thought, Josh. But it's been a while since it's been mentioned, and the Towers are due to be updated, sometime in the next 1-3 months.  So, it's worth reincarnating.

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#3 2003-01-01 9:03 pm

Da Penguin
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From: 40 25 N, 79 55 W Pos
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Re: a thought on g4 towers

Now, I dunno this for myself first hand, but i remember a lot of talk revolving aroudn how a quad G4 would not get that much of a performance boost, unless the bus speed could fed the G4s properly. I believe even the duals right now are being starved.

~The Penguin


...........

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#4 2003-01-01 9:50 pm

NAG
A witch!
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From: /usr/local/apps/nag
Registered: 2000-09-22
Posts: 30229

Re: a thought on g4 towers

I wouldn't expect much in the tower area until around MWNY.


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#5 2003-01-01 9:53 pm

SuperJosh
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From: Not.........here?
Registered: 2002-12-16
Posts: 37

Re: a thought on g4 towers

Now, I dunno this for myself first hand, but i remember a lot of talk revolving aroudn how a quad G4 would not get that much of a performance boost, unless the bus speed could fed the G4s properly. I believe even the duals right now are being starved.

~The Penguin

Yup, definately true - the biggest bottleneck in the current motherboard design is the bus speed, which I mentioned.  So, what might be in the wings?

Maybe what Apple is thinking is doubling or tripling the bus speed and slapping in anther processor or two (seeing as the bottleneck is gone, and perhaps more elegantly than "slapping").

Being merely an armchair engineer, it seems to me a simple think to up the bus speed.  Am I wrong?  Of course, if it was simple, wouldn't Apple have done it already?  But, then Apple isn't about merely doing simple things.... but I digress.

-Josh

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#6 2003-01-01 10:18 pm

NAG
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Re: a thought on g4 towers

Right now the problems with the no DDR and slow bus are Moto's fault. We probably won't see any major changes until the PPC 970 appears.


"You call *this* archaeology?" • Professor Henry Jones
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#7 2003-01-02 12:06 am

mr iMac
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From: BP, IL
Registered: 1999-10-09
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Re: a thought on g4 towers

I think once we are running 400mHZ Bus speed, we will be doing just fine with a QuadMac G4.


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#8 2003-01-02 2:24 pm

Ribtorus
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Registered: 2002-07-11
Posts: 13751

Re: a thought on g4 towers

I don't think that OS X currently scales past two processors. I'm not absolutely certain of that, but I read it on the 'net, so it must be true.

Maybe the large heastsink is Apple's attempt at using quieter fans. Not very successfully it seems. If Apple would stop encasing their towers in plastic, then they would get much better heat flow from the warm internal air within the case to the oustside ambient air. But they won't, so they don't.


when surrounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
and the women come out to cut up what remains,
just roll to your rifle and blow out your brains,
and go to your god like a soldier...

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#9 2003-01-02 8:04 pm

smd3
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Registered: 2002-10-24
Posts: 385

Re: a thought on g4 towers

Slap two more processors in and then we'll see who's complaining about fan noise, not to mention what it would do to the price.

I've heard it stated before that the bus can't feed the G4's as it is. It seems strange to me why they'd even build the board like this.

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#10 2003-01-03 1:32 am

iboy
high as a kite
From: Vancouver
Registered: 2001-06-21
Posts: 1536

Re: a thought on g4 towers

Why the heck would Apple almost intentionally hobble high speed ram

They didn't.  Right now, the G4 can't support busses faster than 167 MHz.  Apple can't just throw in a 333 MHz bus.  They have to wait for Motorolla to come out with a new version of the G4 that is.  Do you really think they would add DDR RAM, but then purposely not increase the bus to match?  Right now, it's beyond their control.


R.I.P. MacAddict  sad

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#11 2003-01-06 11:46 am

Black Stallion
Uhhhhhh..... huh?
From: Galveston, TX
Registered: 2001-03-28
Posts: 1723

Re: a thought on g4 towers

Whatever happened with Apple signing for the Motorola PPC970 chips?

...or what about the rumor that Apple was gonna use the AMD Hammer chip?


Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

"If I owned Texas and Hell, I would rent out Texas and live in Hell." - General Philip Sheridan

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#12 2003-01-06 11:50 am

NAG
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Re: a thought on g4 towers

They are IBM PPC 970 chips. PPC970 is a derivative of the Power series made by IBM. They will probably be introduced about summer time.


"You call *this* archaeology?" • Professor Henry Jones
http://homepage.mac.com/dpauw/.Pictures/misc/moron.gif

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#13 2003-01-06 3:16 pm

smd3
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Registered: 2002-10-24
Posts: 385

Re: a thought on g4 towers

I wasn't using Macs when they went from the older PPC chips to the newer G3/G4. Now, that I'm a switcher what does this mean for me? Is the new chip supposed to be backward compatible? I wouldn't mind some insight from people have experienced this.

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#14 2003-01-06 3:26 pm

DH
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Posts: 1767
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Re: a thought on g4 towers

I wasn't using Macs when they went from the older PPC chips to the newer G3/G4. Now, that I'm a switcher what does this mean for me? Is the new chip supposed to be backward compatible? I wouldn't mind some insight from people have experienced this.

By backwards compatible do you mean, can you upgrade your Mac to a PPC 970?  It depends.  Apple won't ever be making upgrade cards, so you won't be able to upgrade through Apple.  However, some enterprising 3rd party manufacterer might be able to make a PPC 970 upgrade card, just like PPC 601-604->G3/4 cards, and G3->G4 cards.

I can't really think of any other definitions of backwards compatible that you might mean.  Software that is written for the 32-bit chips should run on the PPC 970, but not the other way around.  (I imagine we see hybrid 32/64-bit apps for a while.)

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#15 2003-01-06 3:36 pm

smd3
Member
Registered: 2002-10-24
Posts: 385

Re: a thought on g4 towers

What I meant was the new chip being able to run the older software. I'm hoping that this may mean that developers will stick the the older code. I guess I need to read up on the PPC970 a bit.

It's just scary that I just bought this computer and the possibility that it will be outdated very quickly. I mean I expected it to be outdated by mhz, but I'm hoping not to get shut out completely.

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#16 2003-01-06 4:05 pm

NAG
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From: /usr/local/apps/nag
Registered: 2000-09-22
Posts: 30229

Re: a thought on g4 towers

Yes the PPC 970 is fully backwards compatible.

If you are in the market for a new tower and can wait for a year I would.


"You call *this* archaeology?" • Professor Henry Jones
http://homepage.mac.com/dpauw/.Pictures/misc/moron.gif

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#17 2003-01-06 6:55 pm

box of heads
Banned
Registered: 2002-11-12
Posts: 154

Re: a thought on g4 towers

a year?

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#18 2003-01-18 11:04 pm

macpunk
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From: CA
Registered: 2001-01-23
Posts: 253
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Re: a thought on g4 towers

a year?

365 days


meh.

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#19 2003-01-19 3:26 am

ukimalefu
4 8 15 16 23 42
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From: time loop
Registered: 2002-09-09
Posts: 9361
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Re: a thought on g4 towers

a year?

eek  eek  eek  eek  eek  eek  eek  eek  eek  eek  eek

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#20 2003-01-19 10:12 am

AaronS
Town Flogger
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From: ohkayelayachohemay
Registered: 1999-08-05
Posts: 4608
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Re: a thought on g4 towers

It won't be that long.


Goodness he just keeps going and going. He's like the energizer bunny of stupid.

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#21 2003-01-19 12:33 pm

NAG
A witch!
Royal Wombat
From: /usr/local/apps/nag
Registered: 2000-09-22
Posts: 30229

Re: a thought on g4 towers

I give intentionally long due dates so people don't come and complain because I predicted it would be out three months ago and it didn't.

I am not a definitive souce people!


"You call *this* archaeology?" • Professor Henry Jones
http://homepage.mac.com/dpauw/.Pictures/misc/moron.gif

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#22 2003-01-20 1:23 am

SuperMacTech
Member
Registered: 2003-01-13
Posts: 44

Re: a thought on g4 towers

Here's my humble opinion on why Apple went to DDR RAM without optimizing the MLB and put such a huge heatsink on their dual processors:

- Apple touted the "full symmetric processing" capability with OS X, but had few machines that actually had dual processors to take advantage of it.  And those that were on the market weren't very affordable to the casual user. 

- Apple was developing the Xserve at the same time they developed the new "Mirrored-Doors" machine.  So, they were moving to a new System Controller technology and DDR RAM anyway to implement into the new servers. 

- The new Powerbooks, the new Xserve, OS X Jaguar, Airport Extreme, and other very new technologies have been in the works over the past 12-18 (???) months or so.  Apple is gearing up for major wireless technologies with an emphasis on their portables.  Jobs even said this in his last keynote.

-  With all the new stuff being developed by Apple with the majority of attention going to software and mobile solutions, it seems their R&D has been at a minimal on the G4 PowerMac lineup.  I think Apple has implemented what technologies they were already developing for other machines into the G4s with little optimizing.

-  This gives Apple the ability to introduce a "new" line of G4s with all dual processors and the latest RAM technology while keeping their research and development on it at a minimum.  This keeps the tower crowd happy for a while and gives Apple more time to finish up their new PB G4s and other technologies they want to push.

-  SO, what you get is a new G4 PowerMac with Dual Processors and DDR RAM and watered down system controller and support for 4 IDE drives for a mere $1699.  What you don't initially know is that the RAM and dual processor is bottlenecked by the logic board and the processor card is hot enough to boil an egg.  Is it faster than the old G4s?  Sure.  Is it as innovative as the old G4s?  No way. 

Apple could keep the same processors and RAM, and only focus on the logic board.  With that alone, they could introduce a radically faster machine.  People have been yearning for a new G5 for months now.  How about a board that can handle the G4 first?!?

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#23 2003-01-23 8:12 pm

yn
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From: Torrance, CA, USA
Registered: 2000-09-26
Posts: 245

Re: a thought on g4 towers

Nah, the real reason is that the G4 made by Motorola (or PowerPC 7455) doesn't take full advantage of DDR RAM so that Apple doesn't have a reason to optimize the motherboard anyway. It is also manufactered with .18 micron technology so that it generates more heat than current Intel or AMD chips. Well, there is a chip called PowerPc 7457-MR with .13 micron tehcnology AND take full advantage of DDR RAM on Motolora's PowerPC roadmap, but it is only "proposal."

Blame everything on Motorola. EVERYTHING.

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#24 2003-01-24 12:40 am

Arc
Oh my God.
Registered: 2000-12-19
Posts: 2244

Re: a thought on g4 towers

I am not a definitive souce people!

People can't help but trust a man with Gonzo as his avatar!  twisted


Admins!  I've been waiting for you!

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#25 2003-01-26 8:33 pm

benzmacx
Member
From: Old Lyme, CT
Registered: 2002-12-27
Posts: 1295

Re: a thought on g4 towers

The reason apples bus speed is crap is because that is the best that MOTO can make it run on, it is not their fault that MOTO is almost crap.  They need to move away from moto and to I'm.  I don't like the idea of using Intel or AMD.

I got to go watch the Superbowl and hope for an apple commercial  big_smile


Mercedes-Benz 190E 2.3-16V 1985 EURO

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